A Discussion with Lissa McGregor, Ojibwe Language Teacher, A.B. Ellis Public School, Espanola, Ontario
With: Lissa McGregor Berkley Center Profile
June 12, 2015
Background: As part of the Education and Social Justice Fellowship, in June 2015 student Caitlin Snell interviewed Lissa McGregor, the Ojibwe language teacher at A.B. Ellis Public School in Espanola, Ontario. With almost 300 students enrolled, A.B. Ellis Public School serves residents from Espanola, as well as a few students from Whitefish River First Nation. In this interview McGregor reflects on her experiences within the public school, how to incorporate culture into classroom teaching, and collaborating with other Ojibwe language teachers in the area.
Where are you from?
I'm from Whitefish River First Nation; it's about 20 minutes from here. I went to school on my First Nation until about grade four. Grade five, I went to the Catholic school. Back then we were not given a choice: we had to go to the Catholic school. There was culture shock there, it was very different, and then I went to Espanola High School here. Then I went to college and then university. I taught and lived in Toronto for about 15 years, and those were adults that I taught; they're all Native people in an adult learning center. Then I moved home, took me about two years to get a job and started working at the local school.
How did you become an Ojibwe language teacher?
I was a teacher before I started teaching Ojibwe. I had an opportunity to take a class in Ojibwe language, so I left my other job. I was a special education teacher and took a year off to go to school and learn Ojibwe, which I’ve always wanted to do because they didn't offer it when I was a kid, and I wasn’t taught Ojibwe by my parents. So at the end of the year I was hired by the Catholic school here because their language teacher was off sick, so I finished the year off there. It was probably about six weeks, and then I needed to work, so I applied for this job, and I got it and I've been here since. This is my sixth year at A.B. Ellis.
What challenges do you face as an Ojibwe language teacher?
I think time is probably one of the biggest. Honestly, I'm not complaining about prep time per se, but there are no resources for the kids at their level, so I design the program and I design all their materials, everything, so I'm always time strapped and financially strapped. Sometimes I have to buy stuff and then I'm trying to deliver, and I deliver to Aboriginal students, Ojibwe students, and also non-Native students in the school. So the way I deliver the program is a little bit different for each group. And it is within a public school setting, so that's a consideration as well. I also have to haul my stuff from class to class. Even though I have this room, I go into, like, kindergarten classes and primary classes; they don't come here, I go to them, so I'm like a bag lady, just dragging stuff around from room to room. I understand it's normal for language teachers. French language teachers also feel like second-class citizens because they also have to do the same thing, although they already have a lot of resources. The Ojibwe language program in a lot of schools is still fairly new, so there is not a lot there. The curriculum has been tied up in political fighting for at least two years. It was supposed to be released two years ago; still, honestly, I don't see it coming. I work with other language teachers in this board, and basically we develop our own program.
What do you enjoy most about your position?
I think it's fun. I still find it fun, which is great. The kids are pretty funny, I like that. I get a kick out of them, and honestly it's not boring. Every day goes by super-fast because I’m busy as soon as I get here, I’m on the go so I'm exhausted by the end of the day, but it's usually a good day. I like knowing almost every single kid in the school.
What is the purpose of education?
Well, that's a really big question; it's like an interview question for a job. Well, I know what I want education to be. That’s not necessarily what parents or even administration or the province thinks the purpose of education is. I think the purpose is to help children understand themselves and realize their potential in the world, know who they are.
What is the role of culture in education?
Well, we're embedded in culture, so I don't see how you can get away from it. It's in everything. That's like asking me, "Do you need air to breathe?" It's a part of you, you can't breathe without it. Education is definitely embedded in it, so I think it's useful to recognize that. I find a lot of what I'm teaching to students who are non-Native, I have to explain a lot of things, and I try to do it in a really simple way. Recently I've started taking advantage of the SMART Boards in the classrooms, so I do PowerPoint presentations and often I'll start from a really global perspective, so I’ll pull in cultural information from different backgrounds.
For example, my students are just finishing up a whole unit on names, so I did a PowerPoint presentation on that, and we looked at Christian baptisms and Hindu naming ceremonies, Hebrew naming ceremonies, talked a little about that. After we discussed it, I'm hoping their minds are a little more open to the idea that not everything is the same, not everyone is the same, so that when I introduce how Anishinabek people do it, it's not just some weird thing. It kind of falls into the realm of normalcy, I suppose, so when I talk about naming, which is huge in our culture, it's not weird, it's just “Okay, that's the way it is.” And there are kids in the classroom here, even though most of the people in northern Ontario are probably white, or basically white, we do have some other kids here who are not, and when I was showing the Hindu one, one of the kids said, "Is that Hindi?" So their culture is represented as well; it's not just about what Ojibwe people are doing. I'm interested in making sure that they have an open perspective of the world around them.
Can you talk about your collaboration with other Ojibwe language teachers?
Well, they are in the public school system, so it's all part of Rainbow District School Board. We meet several times a year to discuss our program, and we plan what we're teaching and how we're teaching it so that our students who go into our high school system are going to all have the same kind of information, because most of our students are going to go into the public school system at the high school level as well. They are going to mix with kids in the Catholic system and that's pretty much it, pretty much the other system. Every now and then you'll get some from Sagamok, which goes up to grade eight, so they'll be fed into either the public school system here or a Catholic high school in Sudbury; most of them come to Espanola High school. So I'm interested in my students doing well, being proud of themselves when they go into the high school so they're not feeling like they're unprepared in comparison to the other schools. Like the one in Sagamok, most of those kids took Ojibwe immersion right up until grade four, I think. I know it changes at the junior level, but their primary education is immersion so their language skills are pretty good, and we don't do immersion here. This is 120 minutes a week, I think. That's not enough time for an immersion program, but we do our best.
What's an educational experience where you felt the situation or learning experience was in conflict with your culture?
Even in my community, the teachers were not Native. They were hired by Indian Affairs, the government, and they were often people who couldn't speak English very well. My mom said they were people who couldn’t get work or regular assistance. Mind you, I never thought about it in terms of culture back then. It was just something you had to do; you went to school. Probably the biggest change would have been the on-reserve school to the off-reserve school, and I think the biggest shock was not so much the school per se as the racism I experienced, because I was treated like I was dumb, and I knew I wasn't. So that was a bit of a shock to experience. But I was fortunate because I ended up with a teacher, and the regular kids didn't like this teacher; he had come from a military school so he was really autocratic and extremely strict, but he was like that with everybody, so he treated everybody the same, which the white kids did not like, because they were used to being treated favorably. So they hated him, but I didn't. I moved from the lowest group back to the top group in his class because he didn't care.
What is an experience where you felt your culture was embraced in your education?
When I took that Ojibwe language program it was through Sault College, but it was delivered on a First Nation on Manitoulin, so my instructors, all my teachers were Native. It was a Native institution, so I think that was the most culturally inclusive experience that I had [as] a student.
I'm from Whitefish River First Nation; it's about 20 minutes from here. I went to school on my First Nation until about grade four. Grade five, I went to the Catholic school. Back then we were not given a choice: we had to go to the Catholic school. There was culture shock there, it was very different, and then I went to Espanola High School here. Then I went to college and then university. I taught and lived in Toronto for about 15 years, and those were adults that I taught; they're all Native people in an adult learning center. Then I moved home, took me about two years to get a job and started working at the local school.
How did you become an Ojibwe language teacher?
I was a teacher before I started teaching Ojibwe. I had an opportunity to take a class in Ojibwe language, so I left my other job. I was a special education teacher and took a year off to go to school and learn Ojibwe, which I’ve always wanted to do because they didn't offer it when I was a kid, and I wasn’t taught Ojibwe by my parents. So at the end of the year I was hired by the Catholic school here because their language teacher was off sick, so I finished the year off there. It was probably about six weeks, and then I needed to work, so I applied for this job, and I got it and I've been here since. This is my sixth year at A.B. Ellis.
What challenges do you face as an Ojibwe language teacher?
I think time is probably one of the biggest. Honestly, I'm not complaining about prep time per se, but there are no resources for the kids at their level, so I design the program and I design all their materials, everything, so I'm always time strapped and financially strapped. Sometimes I have to buy stuff and then I'm trying to deliver, and I deliver to Aboriginal students, Ojibwe students, and also non-Native students in the school. So the way I deliver the program is a little bit different for each group. And it is within a public school setting, so that's a consideration as well. I also have to haul my stuff from class to class. Even though I have this room, I go into, like, kindergarten classes and primary classes; they don't come here, I go to them, so I'm like a bag lady, just dragging stuff around from room to room. I understand it's normal for language teachers. French language teachers also feel like second-class citizens because they also have to do the same thing, although they already have a lot of resources. The Ojibwe language program in a lot of schools is still fairly new, so there is not a lot there. The curriculum has been tied up in political fighting for at least two years. It was supposed to be released two years ago; still, honestly, I don't see it coming. I work with other language teachers in this board, and basically we develop our own program.
What do you enjoy most about your position?
I think it's fun. I still find it fun, which is great. The kids are pretty funny, I like that. I get a kick out of them, and honestly it's not boring. Every day goes by super-fast because I’m busy as soon as I get here, I’m on the go so I'm exhausted by the end of the day, but it's usually a good day. I like knowing almost every single kid in the school.
What is the purpose of education?
Well, that's a really big question; it's like an interview question for a job. Well, I know what I want education to be. That’s not necessarily what parents or even administration or the province thinks the purpose of education is. I think the purpose is to help children understand themselves and realize their potential in the world, know who they are.
What is the role of culture in education?
Well, we're embedded in culture, so I don't see how you can get away from it. It's in everything. That's like asking me, "Do you need air to breathe?" It's a part of you, you can't breathe without it. Education is definitely embedded in it, so I think it's useful to recognize that. I find a lot of what I'm teaching to students who are non-Native, I have to explain a lot of things, and I try to do it in a really simple way. Recently I've started taking advantage of the SMART Boards in the classrooms, so I do PowerPoint presentations and often I'll start from a really global perspective, so I’ll pull in cultural information from different backgrounds.
For example, my students are just finishing up a whole unit on names, so I did a PowerPoint presentation on that, and we looked at Christian baptisms and Hindu naming ceremonies, Hebrew naming ceremonies, talked a little about that. After we discussed it, I'm hoping their minds are a little more open to the idea that not everything is the same, not everyone is the same, so that when I introduce how Anishinabek people do it, it's not just some weird thing. It kind of falls into the realm of normalcy, I suppose, so when I talk about naming, which is huge in our culture, it's not weird, it's just “Okay, that's the way it is.” And there are kids in the classroom here, even though most of the people in northern Ontario are probably white, or basically white, we do have some other kids here who are not, and when I was showing the Hindu one, one of the kids said, "Is that Hindi?" So their culture is represented as well; it's not just about what Ojibwe people are doing. I'm interested in making sure that they have an open perspective of the world around them.
Can you talk about your collaboration with other Ojibwe language teachers?
Well, they are in the public school system, so it's all part of Rainbow District School Board. We meet several times a year to discuss our program, and we plan what we're teaching and how we're teaching it so that our students who go into our high school system are going to all have the same kind of information, because most of our students are going to go into the public school system at the high school level as well. They are going to mix with kids in the Catholic system and that's pretty much it, pretty much the other system. Every now and then you'll get some from Sagamok, which goes up to grade eight, so they'll be fed into either the public school system here or a Catholic high school in Sudbury; most of them come to Espanola High school. So I'm interested in my students doing well, being proud of themselves when they go into the high school so they're not feeling like they're unprepared in comparison to the other schools. Like the one in Sagamok, most of those kids took Ojibwe immersion right up until grade four, I think. I know it changes at the junior level, but their primary education is immersion so their language skills are pretty good, and we don't do immersion here. This is 120 minutes a week, I think. That's not enough time for an immersion program, but we do our best.
What's an educational experience where you felt the situation or learning experience was in conflict with your culture?
Even in my community, the teachers were not Native. They were hired by Indian Affairs, the government, and they were often people who couldn't speak English very well. My mom said they were people who couldn’t get work or regular assistance. Mind you, I never thought about it in terms of culture back then. It was just something you had to do; you went to school. Probably the biggest change would have been the on-reserve school to the off-reserve school, and I think the biggest shock was not so much the school per se as the racism I experienced, because I was treated like I was dumb, and I knew I wasn't. So that was a bit of a shock to experience. But I was fortunate because I ended up with a teacher, and the regular kids didn't like this teacher; he had come from a military school so he was really autocratic and extremely strict, but he was like that with everybody, so he treated everybody the same, which the white kids did not like, because they were used to being treated favorably. So they hated him, but I didn't. I moved from the lowest group back to the top group in his class because he didn't care.
What is an experience where you felt your culture was embraced in your education?
When I took that Ojibwe language program it was through Sault College, but it was delivered on a First Nation on Manitoulin, so my instructors, all my teachers were Native. It was a Native institution, so I think that was the most culturally inclusive experience that I had [as] a student.
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