Have you always wanted to work in education, with children?
It's funny...I never liked the area of education. I'm a clinical psychologist, specializing in psychoanalysis, which is quite separate from education, but all the jobs I've had have been in education. I have also learned about special education, psychological theories, and the teaching-learning process from another perspective. I always see through a clinical lens.
What distinguishes this clinical perspective, perhaps, from those in Fe y Alegría who have another type of training or expertise?
It makes things complicated. I don’t analyze people due to my personality, but I can see the phenomenon and [ask], "What’s going wrong?" For example, if a child does not learn, the teacher says he is a lazy, and that to me is catastrophic. What happens is that there are psychological processes that one has to turn on to learn. For example, if a child who has parents who are always fighting, it is impossible to be fully present and ready to learn. The problem is not the child; the problem is everyone else. It's much easier to blame the weakest among us.
Right now in the area where I am, the women make an impressive effort to do well in their class, and to learn to cut and sew clothes. But the teachers already know how to cut and measure, so they do it all so quickly as if it didn’t matter whether the women were learning or not. But I also know people who teach you something by saying, "Feel here, click here," and have patience. Never do for someone what they have to learn to do.
The other issue that moves me a lot is the affective and emotional issue. There are women who come to our centers experiencing violence, and they need to talk. Sometimes I see it as a therapeutic group, not a classroom. But since it is a classroom, I tell the teachers, "While you teach, talk. Ask her how she is."
Are there very different emotional needs in these job training programs compared to regular education?
The mood and needs are the same. The problem is that in this area, since they are adults, their history and their mental frames are already consolidated. As a child, you might see violence at home all the time, perhaps from a mother that disqualifies them, saying, "Lazy!" and that’s a female figure. But then if that child in the classroom finds a positive female figure, the teacher who says, "Good, son, you can do it," that can change their destiny. You don’t see the effect at the time, but later in life they’ll say, "My teacher was good."
However, I also see a lot of people disposed towards solidarity, especially among the poorest people. For that reason I want to concentrate my time with women of the pollera [1], many of whom are single and heads of household.
Why do you think there is more solidarity among the poorest people?
The contact with suffering and need makes you put yourself in the other's shoes. They know what it’s like to not have food; they can feel it. On the other hand, the more intellectual you are, the more you think, the more you'll think coldly and rationalize. These people, however, live in the moment and think much more concretely. They don’t have much time to think about who is to blame: if there are five children with open mouths, something must be done. She grabs the orange, juices the orange, and sells the juice. The problem is that sometimes they don’t calculate; they just think of what they spent and try to recoup a little more. What we want to teach them now is how to plan ahead and make more money, without cheating.
Is there a values component in the job training program?
Yes. Technical education in Bolivia is not highly valued, and it has been more focused in the job itself—teaching sewing, cutting, welding, fixing cars, etc. But in Fe y Alegría, values are important. The state curriculum is based on knowledge. The "plus" that Fe y Alegría adds is the formation of values, but we have great difficulties. It can be written very nicely, but you need to teach values through actions. For example, if the teacher talks about punctuality but is late, that cancels out all that they taught.
We are currently coordinating with the technical center staff and the education in values staff to strengthen this institutional identity and to do this type of formation in our centers. We live the subject of values, but it’s still not very formalized or pedagogical. We need to be more intentional. Companies ask us to teach values: honesty, punctuality, and respect, which are very important values at work. With adults, it is very difficult to change their behaviors, but we always sow these values in our students, and sometimes we reap something.
Can you talk about cooperation with the Jesuits, and how this relates to your work?
Last year, we called a meeting for laypeople working in Jesuit projects. Instead of an increasing population of Jesuits, it’s decreasing. There is a danger that because of this, projects are losing their focus, so we were called to draft a plan for collaboration. We started thinking we were going to work for the Jesuits, but it is they who have to work with us. The strength of the Jesuits is the spiritual exercises. People working in Jesuit programs should also do these exercises, which not only benefit the institution, but also benefit one's life. In fact, we’re doing great work because what matters is building the kingdom [of God]. From where I am in this training, I will help, living Christian principles the best I can. You’re in this work. You can’t walk through this with us, then leave Fe y Alegría for the Ministry [of Education] and become corrupt. It’s impossible. We are building something.
The dynamics of this institution are too accelerated, but I try work along this line. I started in a super orthodox Catholic group and then came to this group which is less orthodox, but what I always try to do is be consistent. You have to work honestly, do what’s asked of you, and not do inadequate work. This is what I convey to my people. I never ask for them to do something today for tomorrow; people need to take their time and do it well. That causes problems, but I try to intervene in this work. I am just one drop, but there may be a drop more, and a droplet more. That is the work we do in this group collaboration.
Are there sometimes conflicts based in each person’s unique faith and charism in these intercultural spaces?
Bolivia is undergoing a process of profound change. My position is much more radical compared to society now. When someone does things well, they should get credit, but that’s also true when someone does things poorly. I think the current policy is reclaiming this intercultural and religious aspect of the country. When they started saying that religion had to be taken out of school, my position was that nobody can take away my faith in God. In that line, now we have to respect different religious beliefs, and that's good. At the end there is one God. It’s not that their God is better than mine, it’s the same. Whether someone is an atheist, Muslim, does not matter, because God is the synthesis. Moreover, sometimes it is necessary to speak of God. With your solidarity and your understanding, you are the image of God.
But whenever there are two people, there is conflict. We rely heavily [on] dialogue. There are people more committed and less so, with more vocation or less, but we all have a common logic. It is not very systematic, but it’s more about being from the heart and being able to solve problems.
To return to politics, what do you think in general of the educational policies of recent years?
In the area where I work, it’s spectacular that they’re reviving the technical aspect of education. Today the law says you have to do technical education. It is very important because in this country there are more people with university degrees, but we don’t have enough people that can do the execution, the technical part of a project. College students are often more theoretical, but the builder can look at something and say, “This isn’t going to work.” For us in this area, this policy is essential. We are opening many doors, we are regularizing the centers, and we’re working towards higher quality training.
The law also rescues indigenous knowledge. People in the country can come out and say, "Today, I will not plant potatoes because they won’t turn out well." I, with five years in agronomy, would not be taught how to do that, but it’s native knowledge and should be revived. It’s an attempt to mix water with oil, but it is interesting that this is the law now.
In general education, things are changing so you have to unlearn to learn, but in our area, everything is new so the law is convenient. The only thing that is hard is to make the women in technical training understand the importance of academics. They have to get their degrees, but they don’t want to. They have left school for many reasons, and think "If I'm learning to make skirts, why do I need to learn math?" It should be taught through application, so that it’s more concrete.
As more people, including women and people in rural areas, have access to education during their childhood, what do you think is the future of these programs geared towards those who did not attend school?
It is difficult to think of the future. In Bolivia, the process never ends. Education reform needs at least 12 years, but with the government changing every five years, the next administration doesn’t keep it going. What you see in the classroom is a framework from 50 years ago. The teacher who has been trained in behaviorism will not understand anything of constructivism. For example, reading comprehension is a big problem in our country. Only literal understanding is taught, so if you ask the child "What is the title of the book?" the boy grabs the book and says, "Here it is," perhaps without understanding. But on the other hand, if you ask the child, "What would have happened if the wolf would not have eaten the grandmother?" the child thinks, "Where is it written?" And of course, it’s not there.
I predict that we will not get young adults and high school students. But, on the other hand if secondary education becomes humanistic and technical, we will lose the part that’s technical alternative education, but maybe in 40 years. If we do not complete the process, we will continue providing this education. We need a place where adults can learn a trade, and also to read and write. Then there are two paths: we complete the reform process, or not.
So, at this moment, what do you think is the most important challenge in education?
Changing the thought pattern of teachers. We’ve come back around to when you told me about this project and social justice, and it’s important to understand the term. Not intellectually; what’s fair is to give more to those with less and less to those with more, but it's hard to understand that. After 500 years, I have a lot, and why should I now have less? I can say, "I'm sorry you're hungry. I'll give you a dollar." This is the problem. We need to become sensitive, but it is very difficult. The culture in Bolivia is very rigid in this sense: those who have less, give. Those who have more, give little or don’t give. It is unfair.
A few years ago I went to Cuba, and there I realized that we are formed by consumerism, but before I hadn’t realized that. I believe that the Cubans were happier than us and those in the United States too.
It is very difficult to change this culture. The most secure job is in the teaching profession; to enter the field, someone has to die. I’ve seen guys who had come to enroll in math, but there weren’t openings so they studied education instead. I see people who do not like to teach. They’re not all made to be educators. Yesterday, I taught a lady of 60 years old to send text messages, and she writes me every day. Education is not as much of a vocation as an occupation in this country, and for those who have been trained in this culture, it will be very difficult to get into another. But now I do see more people who are positive, more hopeful, good people. I feel there is a change now.
I love teaching. It’s my passion, but now I’m stuck in the status quo. Times have changed a lot, and now young people do not want to study. This upsets me a lot because I know they have skills, and they can be good people, but they always want to do the least possible. For a book, they look for the summary of the summary of the summary. I get angry, even more so when they have professional [skills] and are lazy. In part for that reason, I am now on a break from teaching but want to go back.
What have been some of the most useful strategies in this work?
It is very difficult. I've been here a year and half, and it is very complicated and very difficult to make changes from the top down. What I can do is spread hope, telling people, "You work for these young people and these ladies, and we’re going to see long-term effects."
There are also personal problems. People say, "Leave it at the door," and for a while you can do that, but the problems always return. I try to see a human person in the classroom. Many times, if something is going on, the child has no place to talk. I see the context and say, "Wow, with all that's going on, they do this work. Excellent.” I’m happy with the product because it is real. I say, "What do you want? Friend, or professional?” and I help them however they want.
Do you think there is a change in culture, where now you see the individual person more within education, or do we still have to go further on this subject?
We need to go further. But, again, for indigenous people to reclaim their identity and become empowered is very important. If they see a cholita [2] in politics, they think, "If she can do it, why not me?" This is the positive effect of politics. The downside is there are also abuses of power, or advisors who are now in jail for drug trafficking. But back to the positive, last year I attended a meeting of national and international educators, and one of them was a cholita from Sucre. She said, "I am married, but that does not mean I cannot be here." She also asked the teacher to teach her things not for children, but for adults like herself. She was councilor and told me how she did her homework in the meetings. It’s important to share these testimonies. These are people who suffer like you and me; they’re worth no more, no less.
There is a self-esteem problem here, as many say Bolivia is an ugly and sad country. I have traveled extensively and have seen wonderful things, also sad things, and I would not trade this country for anywhere. I know there are moments of injustice, but it's part of our history. We have to think positively and keep moving forward.
- Pollera: skirt, specifically a type of skirt worn by many indigenous women from the Altiplano in La Paz and El Alto.
- Cholita: indigenous woman who lives in a city but still dresses in country style.
