A Discussion with Wilfried Zoundi, Human Rights Lawyer, Ouagadougou, Burkina Faso
With: Wilfried Zoundi Berkley Center Profile
July 30, 2014
Background: As part of the Education and Social
Justice Project, undergraduate student Hopey Fink interviewed Wilfried Zoundi, who works in human rights law in Ouagadougou and frequents the Jesuit-run Center of Studies and Reflection for Students (le Centre d’Etude et de Réflexion pour Collégiens, Lycéens et Etudiants, CERCLE). In this interview, conducted in July 2014, Zoundi discusses human
rights in education and politics, as well as his experience interacting with
students as a working professional at CERCLE.
Could you begin by introducing yourself and explaining a bit
about your education and background?
My name is Wilfried Zoundi. I work at a law firm. I come to CERCLE to do research and to work on cases. Last year, I gave a conference here on human rights and democracy. Students came to attend it. So what really interests me is the promotion of human rights in Africa.
Why did you become interested in studying human rights?
Law is connected to social justice. Each human has a right to be heard and to be defended by the law.
Do you work directly about people affected by human rights violations? How do people come to your firm and how do you help them?
Often, we have family cases. For example, if a man dies, his brother will want his property, his house, his vehicle—even, sometimes, his wife. The widow often does not know her rights. We work directly with these families to work out justice. We also often deal with situations between employees and employers. Sometimes employers abuse their positions of economic superiority. [At our firm] we help people understand their rights.
How do people hear of your services? Do you have advertisements or is it word-of-mouth?
We do have ads. It is not media action, but we try to spread the knowledge among all social divisions.
How many lawyers are there in Burkina Faso?
We are a country of 16 million, and in total we have about 136 lawyers. It is not enough! Lawyers have a lot of work to do.
What education is necessary to practice law in Burkina Faso?
I did four years of university, and after, I went to Togo for more training—one year there. At the moment I am not a titled lawyer. I am in the cabinet working as a paralegal. You need more experience to be a lawyer.
When did you start coming to CERCLE?
I started coming here three years ago…a friend told me about it…I usually sit in the reading room. Or I go upstairs to work alone on the second floor outside.
Do you have the opportunity here to interact with students, particularly students interested in or studying law?
Yes, definitely. Many who study here are interested in the domain. If they have problems of comprehension they sometimes come ask me. I am always available to help.
Are there many professionals who come to work here?
Yes, I know quite a few.
What do you think of the interreligious dynamics here or the role of faith at the center? How does faith present itself at CERCLE?
First of all, I know that this was a place created by Christians, but run with the help of laypeople. It is what we would call open—anyone can come here. There are even apprenticeships and volunteer positions for Muslims. There is solidarity. We are here together.
What is the role of religion in your work with human rights?
Yes, often beliefs play a role. There are Christians, Muslims, others. There are people who call themselves magicians and try to take advantage of people’s faith. We see that there are many charismatic mystics as well, very well-connected in society. People believe in God, but they sometimes follow marabouts as though they are divine. It is complicated for preserving human rights. And because all of these faiths are in society, there is a complexity in dealing with the law.
What are the specific challenges in Burkina Faso for human rights?
The population does not have knowledge of the laws. They do not know what to do in situations where the law is on their side. It is necessary to have education of human rights throughout this country. Because, for example, if I do not know the law, I might hit someone, and when I am legally punished, I do not have any excuses. If people know the consequences of their actions they are more likely to make better decisions. Secondly, our institutions present a challenge. They themselves too often do not respect the law. Heads of state, politicians, bureaucrats—they are not accountable. Our president has been in office for almost thirty years, “legally” because he has changed what legal means. Everyone must respect constitutional law.
How do you think that politicians can be made to respect the law? Is it a change in mentality that is necessary? Must that come from intellectuals, or young people, or religious leaders—from where will these changes come?
First of all, it must come from intellectuals. Those who are educated must lead by example…many even at universities do not respect the law.
How is education linked to human rights? Does the politics of education factor into law?
There is absolutely no exposure to human rights knowledge in the education system as it is. The only people who ever come into contact with human rights law are those who decide to study it after their BAC [baccalaureate exam]—a very, very, small minority. We need it to be built into a program. NGOs here are active in education and others in human rights, but educating about human rights is not a priority.
What are you most proud of personally?
My biggest pride is being able to share my knowledge. Men of the law are like doctors—they can heal society. We play a role against power, but we also help the power…The law must heal society, and when it does not, it is up to individuals to seek justice. The logic of law is that all is social justice.
My name is Wilfried Zoundi. I work at a law firm. I come to CERCLE to do research and to work on cases. Last year, I gave a conference here on human rights and democracy. Students came to attend it. So what really interests me is the promotion of human rights in Africa.
Why did you become interested in studying human rights?
Law is connected to social justice. Each human has a right to be heard and to be defended by the law.
Do you work directly about people affected by human rights violations? How do people come to your firm and how do you help them?
Often, we have family cases. For example, if a man dies, his brother will want his property, his house, his vehicle—even, sometimes, his wife. The widow often does not know her rights. We work directly with these families to work out justice. We also often deal with situations between employees and employers. Sometimes employers abuse their positions of economic superiority. [At our firm] we help people understand their rights.
How do people hear of your services? Do you have advertisements or is it word-of-mouth?
We do have ads. It is not media action, but we try to spread the knowledge among all social divisions.
How many lawyers are there in Burkina Faso?
We are a country of 16 million, and in total we have about 136 lawyers. It is not enough! Lawyers have a lot of work to do.
What education is necessary to practice law in Burkina Faso?
I did four years of university, and after, I went to Togo for more training—one year there. At the moment I am not a titled lawyer. I am in the cabinet working as a paralegal. You need more experience to be a lawyer.
When did you start coming to CERCLE?
I started coming here three years ago…a friend told me about it…I usually sit in the reading room. Or I go upstairs to work alone on the second floor outside.
Do you have the opportunity here to interact with students, particularly students interested in or studying law?
Yes, definitely. Many who study here are interested in the domain. If they have problems of comprehension they sometimes come ask me. I am always available to help.
Are there many professionals who come to work here?
Yes, I know quite a few.
What do you think of the interreligious dynamics here or the role of faith at the center? How does faith present itself at CERCLE?
First of all, I know that this was a place created by Christians, but run with the help of laypeople. It is what we would call open—anyone can come here. There are even apprenticeships and volunteer positions for Muslims. There is solidarity. We are here together.
What is the role of religion in your work with human rights?
Yes, often beliefs play a role. There are Christians, Muslims, others. There are people who call themselves magicians and try to take advantage of people’s faith. We see that there are many charismatic mystics as well, very well-connected in society. People believe in God, but they sometimes follow marabouts as though they are divine. It is complicated for preserving human rights. And because all of these faiths are in society, there is a complexity in dealing with the law.
What are the specific challenges in Burkina Faso for human rights?
The population does not have knowledge of the laws. They do not know what to do in situations where the law is on their side. It is necessary to have education of human rights throughout this country. Because, for example, if I do not know the law, I might hit someone, and when I am legally punished, I do not have any excuses. If people know the consequences of their actions they are more likely to make better decisions. Secondly, our institutions present a challenge. They themselves too often do not respect the law. Heads of state, politicians, bureaucrats—they are not accountable. Our president has been in office for almost thirty years, “legally” because he has changed what legal means. Everyone must respect constitutional law.
How do you think that politicians can be made to respect the law? Is it a change in mentality that is necessary? Must that come from intellectuals, or young people, or religious leaders—from where will these changes come?
First of all, it must come from intellectuals. Those who are educated must lead by example…many even at universities do not respect the law.
How is education linked to human rights? Does the politics of education factor into law?
There is absolutely no exposure to human rights knowledge in the education system as it is. The only people who ever come into contact with human rights law are those who decide to study it after their BAC [baccalaureate exam]—a very, very, small minority. We need it to be built into a program. NGOs here are active in education and others in human rights, but educating about human rights is not a priority.
What are you most proud of personally?
My biggest pride is being able to share my knowledge. Men of the law are like doctors—they can heal society. We play a role against power, but we also help the power…The law must heal society, and when it does not, it is up to individuals to seek justice. The logic of law is that all is social justice.
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