Background: As part of the Peacebuilding Practitioners Interview Series, Jason Klocek interviewed Sammy Kalisa, who serves as a project manager for Rwandans Allied for Peace and Progress (RAPP). In this interview, Kalisa provides his opinion on what more needs to be done to complete the reconciliation process in Rwanda. He also discusses what Rwandans can learn from their history.
Mr. Kalisa, can you please first speak about your background and how these experiences have influenced your interest in conflict resolution and peace studies?
Two major events have influenced me. The first involves a friend I had for a very long time. We went to school together; he was a frequent guest to our home. We were good friends even after school. It was known that his father had been in the government which helped to plan the genocide, but my friend told me that his father was a Tutsi that had worked in the government at the time of the genocide and had been killed during the violence. I remember not really knowing what to think of him, but I remember my mother and other family members saying we must forgive and move on.
Some years later, this friend went to France where he said his sister lived. Actually he said he was going to the U.S.A. where his brother lived, but I learned that he had gone to France. We stayed in touch, but not very often. However, then I learned later that his father was not a Tutsi at all, but his mother had been one. His father was a Hutu and had not died during the genocide. He was living in France and my friend had moved to live with his father. He never told me this. But, as I found out these things, and my friend also found out that I knew them, he stopped corresponding with me. Maybe he was embarrassed or maybe ashamed. But even when I knew the truth I knew that I had to choose not to hate him or his father for what he had done. From this moment I started to transform myself. I began to read many books on conflict resolution and peace studies. And, of course I knew of some peacemakers throughout the word, like Martin Luther King, Jr. and Nelson Mandela. I tried to learn more about them.
When I was first starting this transformation process, I realized how difficult it was. One day I came home telling my brother about this amazingly beautiful girl I had seen near our home. He jokingly said that she is a Hutu, so don’t trust her too much. While this was mainly a joke, I realized that it had affected me. I didn’t really look her at the same way after knowing she was a Hutu. And still in the back of my mind I knew she didn’t commit crimes during the genocide, so I should not hate her or have bad feelings towards her. This showed me, though, how difficult it can be to transform one self.
The second major event in my life occurred more recently, when I learned that a member of our Lutheran church community had gone to Eastern Mennonite University to study peace studies. This introduced me to the number of programs in the United States and other places and showed me that it was possible for someone from our community to go to these places to study about peace. However, at the same time, as I meet more people from these types of programs it is sometimes disappointing, as some are just doing it as a way to get a job. Still, some are very passionate about their work and want to work in solidarity with others. You know, live in similar conditions and seek peace together. This, too, is what I desire.
Is this is something you have plans to pursue beyond your current work?
Yes. I am currently applying to the master of arts in peace and conflict studies at the European University Center for Peace Studies, which is located in Stadtschlaining, Austria. I am also looking at several peace studies program in the United States.
Can you please tell me about Rwandans Allied for Peace and Progress and your work with this organization?
RAPP was established in 2004 by a team of Americans and Rwandans. It is primarily devoted to raising the awareness of and preventing the spread of HIV/AIDS, as well as helping persons living with the disease. We have recently begun a new initiative, funded by German donors, which will help spread our message to 12 communities and three districts of the country. One district is Kigali and the two others are in the eastern part of the country. This program is unique because it uses theater and plays to teach people how to prevent the spread of HIV/AIDS—such as to use a condom and have only one sexual partner—and also aims to fight the stigmatization that exists in our society. We want to help empower those living with this disease, as well as sensitize the communities in which they live. For example, we want to help people living with HIV/AIDS to earn incomes and feel like productive members of their community.
Are there specific ways you do that?
One is to promote cooperatives for persons living with HIV/AIDS. We used to work through associations, but now laws have made it so that people are only allowed to have business activities through cooperatives and not associations. We promote, in particular, agricultural cooperatives because not only can persons with HIV/AIDS sell some of the fruits and vegetables that they grow for an income, they will also have access to better nutrition, which is important for their overall health. So right now we are in the process of identifying some current cooperatives and assessing their activities.
Going back to the plays, how are you organizing them? And, do you have specific goals for the number of plays you would like to produce?
Our goal is to complete 384 plays over the next four years. We have a group of trainers in each district, and two head trainers at our main office which provide support to all three districts. Our acting troupes consist of about six people, and they are trained to present our message through plays.
What are your responsibilities as project manager?
I am responsible for planning and organizing activities, evaluating them and reporting to the project director. In addition, I serve as a type of financial planner. The local communities or districts can present me with their requests for funds, and I try to accommodate these within our budget.
How does your faith influence your work with RAPP?
First, let me say that we need people to live in our societies. God wants people to live. We found in Rwanda that something motivated us to take the lives of others. So what is most important now is finding ways to change those past thoughts and behaviors of people and creating better patterns. Of course, sexual practices are an important way of ensuring life, and some bad sexual practices are sinful, but protecting the life of a person is most important.
Do you feel a tension between your Christian beliefs and promoting the use of condoms?
Our goal is to help change behavior, create safer patterns of sexual behavior. But we have to remember that we are not perfect. We can try and control our desires, but what happens when we fall, when we can’t resist? Should we not protect our lives? For me, my work is not a problem with my faith. I want to help people live. Most important is the call to protect life. And when people give into their desires, should we just make them suffer?
How does Christian opposition to condoms affect your work?
Many pastors and priests, especially Roman Catholics and Pentecostals, are strongly opposed to the use of condoms. They teach people that it is shameful to use them. I know of people who even carry them but don’t use them in the end out of shame. And while I agree that having many sexual partners is not good, that it is a sin, I also do not believe that it is good to endanger people’s lives. If you use a condom and you feel it is wrong, you can ask God to forgive you after you have done this. However, if you get sick and die, what good is that?
What of the role of the churches in reconciliation efforts? How do you see them involved?
Now there is a lot of work being done by the churches. Immediately after the genocide, of course, this was not exactly the case. People had lost their belief in the churches because of the complicity of religious persons. But this did not last forever. Rwandans use their churches to settle even basic domestic disputes. When we have a problem at home we will often go to our pastor or church for help. And so, people did not abandon their churches.
Also, the government quickly saw that they needed the churches to help with reconciliation. The churches reach out to many different people in our society. But first religious leaders needed to be trained in reconciliation and peace, so as to form a common view. Some churches were eager for this; others were not. The presence of international faith-based NGOs, like Lutheran World Federation and World Vision, also promoted the training of religious leaders. Now many interfaith reconciliation groups have been formed in several districts throughout the country.
In addition, the incorporation by the government of religious leaders into the gacaca court system further increased the role of religious leaders in the reconciliation process.
How effective do you think these religious leaders and church members are in their reconciliation work?
Their biggest impact has come through preaching. Many, many pastors now preach on reconciliation and peace. And people listen to them and see it as God’s message. This has even resulted in confessions by past perpetrators of the genocide. Preaching is especially strong in the rural areas. In addition, many churches often pray for the country, forgiveness, repentance, and the ability to live together.
One problem that continues today, though, is the fact that no church in Rwanda has a good long-range plan for reconciliation. And very few have established anything like a ministry or office of peace or reconciliation. Overall, the churches reconciliation efforts are not very well organized amongst themselves or within their own communities. This has made them less effective.
Let’s talk about reconciliation more broadly for a moment. In your view, what does reconciliation in Rwanda look like?
At first many people talked about the need for reconciliation between the perpetrators of genocide and victims. However, reconciliation is about more than this. Reconciliation is about all Rwandans. It involves all of us. Even if you were not a perpetrator or victim, you may know these people. And, it is everyone’s responsibility to empower others to tell the truth about what they did. It is everyone’s responsibility to set an example of what the new Rwanda should be.
I believe that we have to constantly remember reconciliation, even in our everyday work. We need to think about forgiveness and respect for others. You see, reconciliation starts with one’s self. I have friends whose fathers killed people during the genocide. Why should I hate the sons of those fathers? I have found myself saying it is not good to hate—not even those involved in the genocide. This has been a personal process, and I believe that is where reconciliation starts. When we start changing, we can help others change as well.
Can we say that Rwanda is a reconciled country? Is the reconciliation process complete?
No and yes. No, since we still need to teach and change the hearts and minds of people. Many young people now have questions about why their grandfather or grandmother is dead or why their father is in prison. Many people at home are still filled with hate and tell their children it is because of the Hutus or Tutsis. So we still have to grow as Rwandans.
Yes, because we have taken some steps towards reconciliation, though there is still along way to go in order to achieve this process that started 15 years ago. Since Rwandans were taught to hate each other for more than 40 years, there is much we need to now do to unlearn this hatred. However, I feel that our government has built the foundation for the new generation to move forward, and it is now our responsibility to do that and face those challenges that are still with us.
Interethnic marriage is one of these major issues, and it shows the continued tension between ethnic groups. Many families are opposed to letting their children marry someone outside their own ethnic group. However, you see sometimes now that young people do so anyways. Even if their family is opposed, they say, "Why should I hate this person?" And some families, after seeing this successful marriage, may ask their son or daughter to ask their husband or wife to forgive them. You see, reconciliation comes through examples and stories in Rwanda.
I think we can say that reconciliation is about Rwandans. It is about Rwandans not forgetting what happened, but also being instructed by the lessons of the past to build a bright future.
I have heard that recently the official way to refer to the genocide is as the “Genocide of the Tutsis.” In fact, I have even seen this on many banners throughout town. Do you think this will cause tension since there were other victims during the genocide, such as moderate Hutus?
It is true that we must recognize that some Hutus suffered during the genocide; some helped and hid Tutsis, and some died. However, who was the main target of the genocide? The genocide was planned against the Tutsis. This does not mean that we cannot recognize that others suffered and died, but that it also makes sense then to call it the genocide of the Tutsis. Of course, even outsiders died—like Belgian soldiers, other African nationals, and some journalists. Do we remember them? Yes. But this does not mean we cannot call what took place the genocide against the Tutsis. I mean, even in Germany during the Holocaust, of course, some Germans died, some helped hide Jews, but who was the Holocaust planned against? Mainly the Jews.
In the end, I don’t think words degrade the message. It is about the mind, not words. And we should spend our time focused on reconciliation and doing good work, not wasting our time interpreting words or fighting over interpretations. Even the word “hope,” also on many banners, can be misinterpreted. Many people no longer have their families. Many people do not have jobs. They may ask, “What does this hope mean for me?”
Still, I would like to stress that we do see hope in our country. Only 15 years on, many companies are now coming and others are eager to invest in our country, and this gives people opportunities for jobs, which leads towards hope. Many foreigners are happy when they do come to visit our country, and that is also showing signs of hope. Finally let me say, we cannot change the reality of our past, but if we want to achieve strong reconciliation and prevent another genocide we must move forward with hope.
What are the most important things for Rwandans to focus on in the immediate future—for example, the next five years?
What is most important in Rwanda is to continue teaching about peace and living in harmony. Over the last few years, development has become a big issue. However, we still do not know the minds of people very well. To use a metaphor, since 1994 we have laid the foundation, but we still need to build the house. We need to build the walls, the floors, and the roof. In short, we still need to change the hearts and minds of people, especially our young people. They are open to so many messages now, and still many people have hatred in their hearts. When these children ask at home about what happened during the genocide, they may still be told that things happened because of Tutsis or Hutus depending on who their parents hold ill feelings towards. They need to be taught about peace and harmony to make our foundation strong.
Here, history can be our teacher. History teaches us the consequences of our actions. When we look at our history we can see the consequences of our choices. And we can say to young people, if you choose to hate and kill, this is what will happen. Do you want to end up alone, in prison, dead? If you choose to live in peace and harmony, everyone can live better lives.
Also, even though we talk a lot about reconciliation, it is not organized very deeply in our society. It is important that we teach conflict resolution and peace skills to our children. And, we need to create something like reconciliation departments in our organizations and in our work places. That way, there are ways to solve problems in all areas of our lives without fighting. These would be like forums to discuss our disagreements without resorting to violence.
You know, one of the most amazing things to me about the United States was how President Obama recently chose Hillary Clinton for his cabinet. They had battled so long against each other and argued with each other. But, they did this without resorting to violence. And once Obama won the election he recognized that it was important to continue to listen to what she had to say and work together with her, even if he doesn’t always agree. This is something we need in Rwanda, the ability to listen to one another even when we disagree and work for peace and harmony in Rwanda together.
Mr. Kalisa, thank you very much for your time today.
Two major events have influenced me. The first involves a friend I had for a very long time. We went to school together; he was a frequent guest to our home. We were good friends even after school. It was known that his father had been in the government which helped to plan the genocide, but my friend told me that his father was a Tutsi that had worked in the government at the time of the genocide and had been killed during the violence. I remember not really knowing what to think of him, but I remember my mother and other family members saying we must forgive and move on.
Some years later, this friend went to France where he said his sister lived. Actually he said he was going to the U.S.A. where his brother lived, but I learned that he had gone to France. We stayed in touch, but not very often. However, then I learned later that his father was not a Tutsi at all, but his mother had been one. His father was a Hutu and had not died during the genocide. He was living in France and my friend had moved to live with his father. He never told me this. But, as I found out these things, and my friend also found out that I knew them, he stopped corresponding with me. Maybe he was embarrassed or maybe ashamed. But even when I knew the truth I knew that I had to choose not to hate him or his father for what he had done. From this moment I started to transform myself. I began to read many books on conflict resolution and peace studies. And, of course I knew of some peacemakers throughout the word, like Martin Luther King, Jr. and Nelson Mandela. I tried to learn more about them.
When I was first starting this transformation process, I realized how difficult it was. One day I came home telling my brother about this amazingly beautiful girl I had seen near our home. He jokingly said that she is a Hutu, so don’t trust her too much. While this was mainly a joke, I realized that it had affected me. I didn’t really look her at the same way after knowing she was a Hutu. And still in the back of my mind I knew she didn’t commit crimes during the genocide, so I should not hate her or have bad feelings towards her. This showed me, though, how difficult it can be to transform one self.
The second major event in my life occurred more recently, when I learned that a member of our Lutheran church community had gone to Eastern Mennonite University to study peace studies. This introduced me to the number of programs in the United States and other places and showed me that it was possible for someone from our community to go to these places to study about peace. However, at the same time, as I meet more people from these types of programs it is sometimes disappointing, as some are just doing it as a way to get a job. Still, some are very passionate about their work and want to work in solidarity with others. You know, live in similar conditions and seek peace together. This, too, is what I desire.
Is this is something you have plans to pursue beyond your current work?
Yes. I am currently applying to the master of arts in peace and conflict studies at the European University Center for Peace Studies, which is located in Stadtschlaining, Austria. I am also looking at several peace studies program in the United States.
Can you please tell me about Rwandans Allied for Peace and Progress and your work with this organization?
RAPP was established in 2004 by a team of Americans and Rwandans. It is primarily devoted to raising the awareness of and preventing the spread of HIV/AIDS, as well as helping persons living with the disease. We have recently begun a new initiative, funded by German donors, which will help spread our message to 12 communities and three districts of the country. One district is Kigali and the two others are in the eastern part of the country. This program is unique because it uses theater and plays to teach people how to prevent the spread of HIV/AIDS—such as to use a condom and have only one sexual partner—and also aims to fight the stigmatization that exists in our society. We want to help empower those living with this disease, as well as sensitize the communities in which they live. For example, we want to help people living with HIV/AIDS to earn incomes and feel like productive members of their community.
Are there specific ways you do that?
One is to promote cooperatives for persons living with HIV/AIDS. We used to work through associations, but now laws have made it so that people are only allowed to have business activities through cooperatives and not associations. We promote, in particular, agricultural cooperatives because not only can persons with HIV/AIDS sell some of the fruits and vegetables that they grow for an income, they will also have access to better nutrition, which is important for their overall health. So right now we are in the process of identifying some current cooperatives and assessing their activities.
Going back to the plays, how are you organizing them? And, do you have specific goals for the number of plays you would like to produce?
Our goal is to complete 384 plays over the next four years. We have a group of trainers in each district, and two head trainers at our main office which provide support to all three districts. Our acting troupes consist of about six people, and they are trained to present our message through plays.
What are your responsibilities as project manager?
I am responsible for planning and organizing activities, evaluating them and reporting to the project director. In addition, I serve as a type of financial planner. The local communities or districts can present me with their requests for funds, and I try to accommodate these within our budget.
How does your faith influence your work with RAPP?
First, let me say that we need people to live in our societies. God wants people to live. We found in Rwanda that something motivated us to take the lives of others. So what is most important now is finding ways to change those past thoughts and behaviors of people and creating better patterns. Of course, sexual practices are an important way of ensuring life, and some bad sexual practices are sinful, but protecting the life of a person is most important.
Do you feel a tension between your Christian beliefs and promoting the use of condoms?
Our goal is to help change behavior, create safer patterns of sexual behavior. But we have to remember that we are not perfect. We can try and control our desires, but what happens when we fall, when we can’t resist? Should we not protect our lives? For me, my work is not a problem with my faith. I want to help people live. Most important is the call to protect life. And when people give into their desires, should we just make them suffer?
How does Christian opposition to condoms affect your work?
Many pastors and priests, especially Roman Catholics and Pentecostals, are strongly opposed to the use of condoms. They teach people that it is shameful to use them. I know of people who even carry them but don’t use them in the end out of shame. And while I agree that having many sexual partners is not good, that it is a sin, I also do not believe that it is good to endanger people’s lives. If you use a condom and you feel it is wrong, you can ask God to forgive you after you have done this. However, if you get sick and die, what good is that?
What of the role of the churches in reconciliation efforts? How do you see them involved?
Now there is a lot of work being done by the churches. Immediately after the genocide, of course, this was not exactly the case. People had lost their belief in the churches because of the complicity of religious persons. But this did not last forever. Rwandans use their churches to settle even basic domestic disputes. When we have a problem at home we will often go to our pastor or church for help. And so, people did not abandon their churches.
Also, the government quickly saw that they needed the churches to help with reconciliation. The churches reach out to many different people in our society. But first religious leaders needed to be trained in reconciliation and peace, so as to form a common view. Some churches were eager for this; others were not. The presence of international faith-based NGOs, like Lutheran World Federation and World Vision, also promoted the training of religious leaders. Now many interfaith reconciliation groups have been formed in several districts throughout the country.
In addition, the incorporation by the government of religious leaders into the gacaca court system further increased the role of religious leaders in the reconciliation process.
How effective do you think these religious leaders and church members are in their reconciliation work?
Their biggest impact has come through preaching. Many, many pastors now preach on reconciliation and peace. And people listen to them and see it as God’s message. This has even resulted in confessions by past perpetrators of the genocide. Preaching is especially strong in the rural areas. In addition, many churches often pray for the country, forgiveness, repentance, and the ability to live together.
One problem that continues today, though, is the fact that no church in Rwanda has a good long-range plan for reconciliation. And very few have established anything like a ministry or office of peace or reconciliation. Overall, the churches reconciliation efforts are not very well organized amongst themselves or within their own communities. This has made them less effective.
Let’s talk about reconciliation more broadly for a moment. In your view, what does reconciliation in Rwanda look like?
At first many people talked about the need for reconciliation between the perpetrators of genocide and victims. However, reconciliation is about more than this. Reconciliation is about all Rwandans. It involves all of us. Even if you were not a perpetrator or victim, you may know these people. And, it is everyone’s responsibility to empower others to tell the truth about what they did. It is everyone’s responsibility to set an example of what the new Rwanda should be.
I believe that we have to constantly remember reconciliation, even in our everyday work. We need to think about forgiveness and respect for others. You see, reconciliation starts with one’s self. I have friends whose fathers killed people during the genocide. Why should I hate the sons of those fathers? I have found myself saying it is not good to hate—not even those involved in the genocide. This has been a personal process, and I believe that is where reconciliation starts. When we start changing, we can help others change as well.
Can we say that Rwanda is a reconciled country? Is the reconciliation process complete?
No and yes. No, since we still need to teach and change the hearts and minds of people. Many young people now have questions about why their grandfather or grandmother is dead or why their father is in prison. Many people at home are still filled with hate and tell their children it is because of the Hutus or Tutsis. So we still have to grow as Rwandans.
Yes, because we have taken some steps towards reconciliation, though there is still along way to go in order to achieve this process that started 15 years ago. Since Rwandans were taught to hate each other for more than 40 years, there is much we need to now do to unlearn this hatred. However, I feel that our government has built the foundation for the new generation to move forward, and it is now our responsibility to do that and face those challenges that are still with us.
Interethnic marriage is one of these major issues, and it shows the continued tension between ethnic groups. Many families are opposed to letting their children marry someone outside their own ethnic group. However, you see sometimes now that young people do so anyways. Even if their family is opposed, they say, "Why should I hate this person?" And some families, after seeing this successful marriage, may ask their son or daughter to ask their husband or wife to forgive them. You see, reconciliation comes through examples and stories in Rwanda.
I think we can say that reconciliation is about Rwandans. It is about Rwandans not forgetting what happened, but also being instructed by the lessons of the past to build a bright future.
I have heard that recently the official way to refer to the genocide is as the “Genocide of the Tutsis.” In fact, I have even seen this on many banners throughout town. Do you think this will cause tension since there were other victims during the genocide, such as moderate Hutus?
It is true that we must recognize that some Hutus suffered during the genocide; some helped and hid Tutsis, and some died. However, who was the main target of the genocide? The genocide was planned against the Tutsis. This does not mean that we cannot recognize that others suffered and died, but that it also makes sense then to call it the genocide of the Tutsis. Of course, even outsiders died—like Belgian soldiers, other African nationals, and some journalists. Do we remember them? Yes. But this does not mean we cannot call what took place the genocide against the Tutsis. I mean, even in Germany during the Holocaust, of course, some Germans died, some helped hide Jews, but who was the Holocaust planned against? Mainly the Jews.
In the end, I don’t think words degrade the message. It is about the mind, not words. And we should spend our time focused on reconciliation and doing good work, not wasting our time interpreting words or fighting over interpretations. Even the word “hope,” also on many banners, can be misinterpreted. Many people no longer have their families. Many people do not have jobs. They may ask, “What does this hope mean for me?”
Still, I would like to stress that we do see hope in our country. Only 15 years on, many companies are now coming and others are eager to invest in our country, and this gives people opportunities for jobs, which leads towards hope. Many foreigners are happy when they do come to visit our country, and that is also showing signs of hope. Finally let me say, we cannot change the reality of our past, but if we want to achieve strong reconciliation and prevent another genocide we must move forward with hope.
What are the most important things for Rwandans to focus on in the immediate future—for example, the next five years?
What is most important in Rwanda is to continue teaching about peace and living in harmony. Over the last few years, development has become a big issue. However, we still do not know the minds of people very well. To use a metaphor, since 1994 we have laid the foundation, but we still need to build the house. We need to build the walls, the floors, and the roof. In short, we still need to change the hearts and minds of people, especially our young people. They are open to so many messages now, and still many people have hatred in their hearts. When these children ask at home about what happened during the genocide, they may still be told that things happened because of Tutsis or Hutus depending on who their parents hold ill feelings towards. They need to be taught about peace and harmony to make our foundation strong.
Here, history can be our teacher. History teaches us the consequences of our actions. When we look at our history we can see the consequences of our choices. And we can say to young people, if you choose to hate and kill, this is what will happen. Do you want to end up alone, in prison, dead? If you choose to live in peace and harmony, everyone can live better lives.
Also, even though we talk a lot about reconciliation, it is not organized very deeply in our society. It is important that we teach conflict resolution and peace skills to our children. And, we need to create something like reconciliation departments in our organizations and in our work places. That way, there are ways to solve problems in all areas of our lives without fighting. These would be like forums to discuss our disagreements without resorting to violence.
You know, one of the most amazing things to me about the United States was how President Obama recently chose Hillary Clinton for his cabinet. They had battled so long against each other and argued with each other. But, they did this without resorting to violence. And once Obama won the election he recognized that it was important to continue to listen to what she had to say and work together with her, even if he doesn’t always agree. This is something we need in Rwanda, the ability to listen to one another even when we disagree and work for peace and harmony in Rwanda together.
Mr. Kalisa, thank you very much for your time today.
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