A Discussion with a Soweto Teacher, St. Matthew's Secondary School

May 25, 2011

Background: As part of the Education and Global Social Justice Project, in May 2011, undergraduate student Conor Finegan interviewed a science teacher at St. Matthew’s Secondary School, in Soweto, Johannegsburg, a lower class district. In this interview, the teacher discusses the challenges of teaching evolution due to the prevalence of Biblical literalism in South Africa, and the lecture offered by the Origins Centre for high school students called Believing in Creation and Evolution.

As a science teacher, do you have trouble teaching evolution to students? Have you encountered any who don’t like the idea? Maybe they’re not receptive to it because of their religious beliefs?

You know, it all depends on how rooted learners are in their religious beliefs. Those who are strongly rooted in their religious beliefs will just rubbish the whole thing—“No, it is nothing like this.” And those who don’t know where they stand will just accept everything. But when we do teach, we tell them not to relinquish whatever they believe in. This is just for educational purposes because you cannot really—for someone to become otherwise. That’s how we teach this.

When you’re in the classroom and you’re teaching it, how do you handle their anxiety over or dislike for it?

In most cases, I engage them in discussions because when they share their ideas, that’s where the interaction becomes much easier, and after the group discussion, then I ask the group leaders to present their findings, and then we debate. We debate, and then seek for a common ground. Even though it will not be perfectly fitting to the two sides, just for understanding purposes—because even the questions on evolution more testing on your beliefs or your understanding of the whole process. They’re not reproductive questions, so they are to test the flow of your understanding. And in most cases, there are not right or wrong answers.

What is your hope for your students when you teach evolution and science more generally?

The hope is for them to have their thinking elevated to another level. They don’t just have to be stereotyped, believing only things that they get or they are told. And encouraging them to research more because some of the theories that we have learned about have been disproved as time went on, so theories are theories, not a reality. So if they do have some doubts, which is the beginning of any research process, let them go on and expand—just try to get something that will make them more knowledgeable. But we are mostly limited by the time factor because our syllabus is quite long, and sometimes we find ourselves rushing to cover everything before the end of the year. But time allowing, I engage them in discussions.

Do a lot of students have a problem believing in both evolution and creation? Because I know I have talked to some teachers who say they’ve had students come to believe in evolution but lose their religious belief, or they’ll ignore evolution and stay rooted in the creation story belief.

Yes, there are cases like that, where you find that no matter how convincing I try to be, the learners are just immovable, they are just sticking to what they believe. And you don’t have to push them because even I as a teacher, I don’t know the truth, you know, in some cases, so it is a topic that is quite mind-stimulating because we keep on wondering what is happening, so there are those who don’t know whether they should believe in evolution or whether they should believe in creation. They’re just in between, and there are those who just see some elements of commonalities between the two theories and they try to integrate them together, but without finally knowing which side they must fall onto.

Do they have to fall on one side though? Can’t they believe in both?

They can. I mean, the syllabus is not so much prescriptive. They can believe in both, and they can link to one side, it’s fine. But as long as they have reasons for them—falling on both sides or reasons to link on one side only. If they do have tangible reasons, some of which might be acceptable, some of which might not be, but that is what they believe in, and it’s fine because [each] has their freedom to believe in what they want to.

What do you think are the greatest challenges that you face as a teacher trying to teach evolution to religious students? I know you talked briefly about time and not having enough of it, but are there others as well?

There are challenges, especially those who come from families that have got, that read the Bible a lot, people or families that know more about the interpretation and the contents of what is in the Bible, and if you are not well-grounded on that path, you might be led to giving wrong interpretations. And once children discover that you are not telling them the truth, then they’ll start doubting, and whatever you say in the future might not get into their heads. So with me, because I do come across such challenges, and I become very fair, if I’m not sure about something, I say, “No, no, I’m not sure. I’ll research or try to gather information from people who are educated.” And that way, you build up the trust in the learners, that this guy is not teaching us trash or whatever. Yeah, you have to be very much open.

So have you worked at all with R.E. teachers to address—

No, no, not really—we sometimes just had occasional discussions about these things, and they do give me their own version about the whole thing, but probably maybe because the learners do R.E. in class, they could have maybe at some stage have questioned the RE teacher as to what is going on, but I haven’t got the feedback on that one.

So were you with the students when they went to the Origins Centre last year?

Yes.

OK, so what did you think of that program? What do you think it did best?

The Origins Centre, for me, whatever was presented there, well, was an eye-opener for the learners because they didn’t know anything about that, especially the very ones that are in grades 12 now because they only, they were only introduced to evolution then because it was not part of the syllabus. And then I told them they must try to grasp as much information as possible because next year, meaning this year, they’ll be doing that. So that at least it will be a refreshing, and they will at least be able to make some connections. And what I’m aiming at doing around August this year, I won’t be taking them to the Origins Centre, but I’ll be taking them to the Sterkfontein because—Sterkfontein, the Maropeng—it’s under Witts, so there they will be seeing some of the things in their natural way, whereas there [at the Origins Centre] they have statues and models or whatever. So there [at Sterkfontein], they’ll be able to see even the rock layers that we’ll be talking about and the age of the fossils according to the layout of the rocks, so that one is much more relevant, more eye-opening than that. But if you do combine the two, they supplement each other, so visiting both places will be quite handy for the learners.

When you were at Origins, did they do a talk by the priest as well?

They did, they did.

Yes, that’s the focus of my project. What did you think of that part?

From the talk by the priest, he also did not take a side. His emphasis was on the fact that the two meet somewhere. They are not stand-alones. There are some commonalities, which the two theories share, and he tried to show us how we can link up the two. But we didn’t have much enough time because it was a very limited time and we couldn’t really ask much of the questions. But there were some learners who were really very much stimulated about and they asked quite a number of questions. But the cusp of the matter is that they do not have to look at evolution as something out of this world; the two, they meet somewhere.

And so maybe thinking about that problem, what could they have done better so that the learners really could get a hold of that idea—that science and religion do meet and can go together?

Probably maybe if they could have given us a chance to go back again to—because you cannot cover everything in one day. If they could have given us a chance to go back again so as to build up on what the foundation was that laid previously. If not in the same year, like this year, if they do give us another chance, I’ll be taking the very same learners who went there last year and probably now that they have done evolution in more detail, they could be having more questions, and I think the interaction could be much more fruitful for the learners this time around.

That program has changed a little bit since your school went. What they have started to do is actually send Dr. Merrill van der Walt, an evolutionary scientist, and Fr. Peter Knox, a Catholic priest, out to schools. So they come to the schools and they talk for two hours and they present this idea about creation and evolution fitting together. So the first hour is teaching evolution, what it is and everything, and the second hour is teaching that creation and evolution are compatible. Do you think a program like that could work at your school?

Yeah, I think here it would fit perfectly well because we are a Catholic school and we are governed by the religious dictates and it might not work in other schools, but here I think it’s just going to work perfectly because all the learners are religiously oriented. Yeah, so it will fit nicely here.

So because the students are so religiously oriented, do you have challenges teaching them evolution?

Yes, the challenges are there, like I said, on their own because even I as a teacher, I might not be able to explain with confidence certain aspects, so it becomes a challenge for me. That’s where I said, should there be something that I’m not really very sure about, I don’t tell the learners a lie, I tell them, “OK, I’m going to do some research on this one,” because I don’t want them to go out there with the wrong impression because these learners, what I know, is that they interact with learners from other schools, and they compare information. And they, once they are convinced that no, the teacher has been giving them wrong information—first thing, you lose their respect, and then whatever you say to them will no longer be appreciated as when you did tell them the truth.

I know you say if you don’t know an answer, you’ll go look it up, which is great. Do you think that maybe more training is needed for teachers to help you cope with the questions you might get in the classroom about evolution and creation?

Well, for the novice teachers, I think much training will be needed because we have a lot of teachers coming into the profession, some of whom have not even gone as far as the university, so when they come across these things, it is quite mind-boggling. Some of the teachers would always try to always avoid teaching evolution because they are afraid of the challenges that would come from learners, you see? So I do think, yes, that more teachers need training so that they should be able to speak with confidence in answering learners’ questions.

You work at a religious school. How does your personal religion affect your work, if it does at all?

It doesn’t because as a Christian, my belief and personal religion is compatible with what the school ethos are rooted in, and I don’t have a problem with that one. I don’t have a problem. But before I came here, I did teach in a number of public schools, and you see in public schools, learners and the teachers do not have the same kind of thinking because some mix politics with, you know, things, just to achieve their own objectives, and that is where you find that there is more confusion. I think that it is more difficult to teach this evolution in public schools than in here because at least here we have the same line of thinking. If we are to debate about the authenticity of evolution vis-à-vis creation, then at least we’ll be moving from the same angle and our discussion and debate becomes more directed than if it’s coming from, you know, different angles which do not have a common starting ground.

For my own background then, can you describe how you came to your present position and the journey you took to becoming a teacher here, and what inspires you to do that work?

It’s a long history. You know, honestly speaking, when I was still in high school, I never, I’ve never at any stage dreamt to become a teacher. I had my own ambitions, but unfortunately the family background that I found myself into did not give me a leeway to go the route that I wanted to go because number one, I lost my mother when I was 3 years old. I lost my father when I was 14—before I could even complete matric. And then I am the only child out of these two, and you know, having to be raised by a, you know, step, or let me say, “relatives,” it’s not so good because sometimes you don’t learn things as much as you would if you were under the care of your own parents. But I always from the beginning had the belief that despite all the odds that I found myself in, God did not bring me into this Earth for no reason. Some way, somehow, I must maneuver myself out, and it happened like that. The time that I fell in love with teaching was after completing matric. I went to the university and before I completed, I had financial problems, came back, and at that time, there were a number of schools that did not have well qualified science teachers, so I volunteered in one of the schools, just to help with the learners, in science and mathematics, and out of that, I then developed a love to teach. There is a huge number of learners who go to school but they’re not getting quality services. So from that time, I then took up a job as a temporary teacher, and then I pulled myself up—enough to take myself back to college, and then I went to do teaching or whatever. Ever since that time, I have developed so much closeness and pity for those learners who don’t see the veil of education, so my role is to try and open up because learners are learners. They are still young, and they don’t know whether this education will be valuable to them—to just open up to see the good of education so that tomorrow they can be better people, and as I see some of them progressing, it gives me that fulfilling, that enjoyment, and that is how I came to be in teaching today. As for how I came into this school, truly speaking, I did not apply to come to be a part of this school. I worked at a number of schools, but then a friend of mine—probably maybe he had some contact with Sister Francis—talked about me to her and then she started phoning me, trying to show me, trying to rope me into coming to teach to this school. And it just happened like that. That was in 2006, up to today.

Your passion for teaching is great. How do you get on your students’ levels to give them the same passion for learning that you just talked about? What tools do you use to get that across to them?

On that note, it is more of advice—that if you do things right on the right time, then your future is likely to be brighter. And then of those whom I taught in the past few years, I used to use my children as examples. That OK, I have got a child who is doing civil engineering and all that, and I said to them, “If you really want to know more about this thing, I can give you the phone numbers, you can contact and chat with them,” so in that way you open up their world because some of them come from very—what should I say—from an environment that is too closed up. They seem not to know things that are happening out there, so if you do challenge them and connect them with someone who is on the other side that is doing something that you think will not only benefit the learner but the country as well, for me, I think that is more than good because you can make an engineer from someone who has the potential without realizing that he has the qualities to become one, so in that way, you network! Yeah.

So do you see maybe that that strict religious view that takes the Bible as fact and pushes back against evolution—is that a roadblock for some students to becoming successful?

I wouldn’t really—I don’t have an answer to that one, unfortunately. I don’t know what goes in their minds and how they build up on the advice I give them and what kind of information they gather from outside. I haven’t really gone deeply into that.

Last question: What do you want teachers, educators around the world to know about your classroom and your school?

In terms of?

In terms of science and evolution, but also just the work that you guys do and what you see as the success that goes on here?

You see, our success is measured more on the results, and one thing for sure is that our school has been getting 100 percent pass rate for as many as that I’ve lost count, and I think the schools around here emulate what we are doing. Some teachers do come in here and ask, “But how do you do it? How do you manage it? Is it not because maybe your classes are small?” And that, that is not true. I mean, look at this—44 in a class—huge classes, so it depends on your approach and how you present it, and how you motivate your learners to take their work seriously.

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