Berkley Center

Background: As part of the Education and Global Social Justice Project, in May 2011 undergraduate student Deven Comen interviewed Angelo Menezes, an associate professor of economics at St. Xavier’s College in Mumbai, India. In this interview, Angelo Menezes discusses his personal struggles with the structured nature of Christianity, his dedication to the poor of India, and the importance of incorporating the poor into society and ensuring that the benefits of development are shared with all socioeconomic classes.

Can you talk about how you came to where you are at Xavier’s?

I come from a very middle-class locality called Parel. My father was a carpenter to augment his salary as a clerk in a government office. We struggled during my childhood. Especially my mother was seeking loans and ran into trouble. I have vivid memories of ragpickers and general poverty.

My scores and my preexisting contact with the Jesuits got me into St. Xavier’s Junior College. When I joined St. Xavier’s College, there were a couple of people that had a serious impression on me. One of them was English professor Eunice D’Souza, one of those anti-management types. In the midst of all of these highty-flightly kinds of students, she picked me up; after the first lecture, she told me to stay after class. I was damn scared and didn’t know what the hell I did wrong. When I went in the staff room, she said she wanted me to start reading more. I had a reading habit before, but I used to read trash. She exposed me to very good literature. Every day she required me to submit ten sentences on anything. I remember the exercise getting especially painful and told her I had nothing to write about. She said, “Write about a dot.” I had gotten myself into a more complicated mess! Looking back, I am so grateful, since she seriously increased my expression. Today as a professor, I do the same exercise with students struggling with English language. Because it helped me, I think it will help other people. The second major influencer was Father Rudi Heredia. He was the reason I joined the Jesuits. He was heading the Institute for Social Research. What I liked about him was his radicalism, his down-to-earth nature, and also his very scholarly approach. We used to have a lot of chats on how to bring about change. I wanted to be like him. But five years out, I couldn’t handle the spiritual rigor. I have a problem with formal prayer. I thought it was a lot of hogwash; if God is loving, why do you keep asking for mercy? In the end, very amicably, me and the society split.

After I graduated from Xavier’s, I was asked to teach in the junior college. I taught there for about five years. When I came out the society, I had to continue with my job. There was a vacancy in Xavier’s. I cleared the interview, but because of the split, I wasn’t appointed. I got a job in a night college for working students. They were exactly the students I wanted to work with—the poor. It was a challenge because the college was purely vernacular. It was a challenge to teach in a mix of Marathi and English. It made me look at economics with a different viewpoint. I needed to teach students who were extremely tired after working as well as inspire them to stay in the class. When I left the night college to come to Xavier’s, I then realized that I had been teaching in the night college for 19 years.

At Xavier’s, I wanted to challenge the way we were going to look at the poor. I questioned Frazer [Mascarenhas, Xavier's principal] at a meeting when he said, "We are training the students for the industry." I said that I did not come back to Xavier’s to work for the industry. After the meeting, he came up and told me we had to look at a variety of students.

Then I started bringing the street into the economics taught in the classroom. The textbook, then and now, binds the students. I always tried to minimally use the textbook. One of my hero's [Medha Patkar, a social activist] friends suggested I have my students trace commodities to find their backward and forward linkages. I think this helped students realize economics is not some formal thing. Parents even got involved to help the students access the markets. We don’t take anything for granted when reading the greats like Adam Smith; we try to understand his words in his context and in the Indian context.

That’s the academic part. Because of my background, the social action part comes naturally. I tend to live a very simple life, although I won’t be shy to use sophisticated technology to deliver.

What was the Jesuit influence on you, then and now?

Apart from Father Rudi, there was another priest, Fr. Paul Vaz. He came to a funeral in Parel for a family friend who had expired. He is a very small-built person and wore simple and tattered clothes with rubber sandals. At that time, priests were known to wear very neat and well-kept clothes. I didn’t know he was wearing sandals until he stepped from behind the altar. He spoke a lot of sense. After hearing him speak, I realized a Jesuit is who I had to be. The mistake I made was that I looked at this priest in a non-spiritual way. When I went into the order, I was interested in working for the forgotten and the downtrodden. I was not religious though. I didn’t like being bound by the text, or having to say a certain prayer at a certain time. I believe that there is a God, and he is almighty. I just didn’t like the requirement of using the pattern of someone else to reach God. I wanted to make my own conversations. I don’t believe in sects. In the society, there were lots of Jesuits who were so inspiring, dedicated to giving up the best things of life and not breaking down. These are things I carry with me as my stamina giver. During the novitiate, we were made to spend a month without an identity on the road—living out poverty in reality. Due to this I understand the pangs of hunger. The poor would share whatever little they had when we asked them for alms—this was not the experience we had with better-off families.

Today I know by leaving the Jesuits I have burned some bridges. But I have learned a lot from these guys. My family doesn’t understand why I left. At the same time, they think I spend too much time at Xavier’s. I try to mentor my niece about poverty; my sisters and I have conquered our history of poverty. My grand-niece wants to be a Bollywood star. Which is fine, but I still want to her understand what our country is going through.

A professor I had at Xavier’s called my pet name on the first day. I found it thrilling and encouraging so I wanted to do the same thing as a professor. Even now I don’t call students by their name in class unless I am confident I know the name of every student in the class.

How has the process of teaching changed over the years for you?

The quest for knowledge. Very selfishly I give students projects that I am enriched by. The constant search for new issues makes students ask me questions. What may seem like a silly question for them is often a profound one for me and helps me think beyond the lines. Social sciences are very people oriented.

I wrote my Ph.D. thesis on ragpickers based on my own experience from growing up in Parel. It took me eight years to finish. I needed female research assistants to gain access to the women ragpickers. There is a whole idea of justice and education at Xavier’s. I went to university without knowing economics in the beginning. The old system was all about rote memorization. My first year of teaching I realized I needed to revisit my entire set of knowledge to actually teach the material.

What are the core values you try to instill in your students?

Being a good human being. Not a goody-goody, but being a person who will reach out to others. I believe the idea of caring is central to college education. The idea of respect must be practiced. This goes for teachers too; we must do what we preach.

What are the greatest challenges facing Mumbai and India? How can Xavier’s play a role?

The current quest for the beautification of Mumbai is a quest to get rid of poverty by getting rid of the poor. That is the biggest challenge: how do you ensure that it is a development for all? The challenge for India is to make policies that will not be subservient to financial powers. Unfortunately a lot of our business policymakers have been co-opted by the system. It is very difficult for Indian business makers to realize that even if a small section of society is missing out, it is a cause of concern. There is a lot of shifting from rural financial to urban financial with globalization. We have city development programs that divert funds from rural development at a tremendous cost of people being displaced and pushed out.

What can Xavier’s do as an autonomous institute? I think Xavier’s has to be openly involved with these activities that will counter such anti-poor measures. I think too many of the staff may feel that these activities are controversial, and they are not conscious of the connections to their own lives. The young people will not foster a movement for the poor if the staff does not motivate them. I accompany my students when they work with the poor. More and more of the staff need to get involved in this. We are caught up with creating academic programs. We are concerned about creating students to interpret theories, not challenge theories. Students can quote and rephrase as experts and good talkers.

So you think orienting staff attitudes toward social justice will create more social justice students?

I am not expecting everyone to go on the street and protest. It is just a plea for a mindset switch. I think too many of us link social justice as being charitable. Lots of colleagues give me money for various causes because they know I do good work with it. I don’t want the flow of funds to stop, so I dare not ask if they’d like to meet the beneficiary or do more than just give me rupees.

What do you think of the SIP program?

I have an advisory role in the Social Immersion Program. Frankly, I think the SIP is superficial because it is not involving or engaging. It is simply imposing. We do not have sessions with our students after they have finished their pen work and leg work. Now I want to work with Nadine and Jennipher to get students to discuss what is happening while they are serving. I want to make this engaging—mentally and not just physically. When you get physically engaged you become charitable. When you get mentally engaged you become angry. It is not that I want students to necessarily be angry, but I want them to understand the injustice.