Berkley Center

Background: As part of the Education and Global Social Justice Project, in May 2011, undergraduate student Deven Comen interviewed Anthony Dias, a Jesuit priest of the province of Mumbai, head of the Xavier Institute of Social Research (XISR) at St. Xavier’s College in Mumbai, a leader in his archdiocese, and a determined advocate for interreligious dialogue between the diverse peoples in India. In this interview, Fr. Dias discusses the social issues that plague India, the role of faith in the education at St. Xavier’s, and the impact of the Jesuit nature of St. Xavier’s, in creating men and women for others, on the future of India.

What is your St. Xavier’s story?

I liked and thought I would always be in social work. This is why I did law: a law background always helps to deal with situations on the ground: release prisoners and do human rights and all. But my superiors thought I was good at analysis, reflection, and writing and would be better off in an academic environment. I was recruited for the Institute for Social Research at St. Xavier’s and have been here ever since.

How did you join the Society of Jesus?

I joined the Jesuits in 1984, at a time when I was exposed to a lot of broader thinking through exposure to rural India. After these experiences, I thought I would convert everyone to Christianity. But then I came face to face with non-Christians and saw their intense humanity, compassion, and fellow feelings. I had to reexamine my own Christian roots and spirituality. I asked myself and realized it was not possible that God was not there; God had to be present. The spirit is present everywhere. That is when my interreligious frontier broadened and expanded. Christianity is one religion among several in India, and while it offers a lot, I realized that other faiths, too, have lessons for all Indians. We must be open to receive what they have to offer. I felt this realization enriched my life as a Jesuit. My encounters with other religions and other people broadened and deepened my own spiritually and Jesuit identity.

So once I came here, my interest with grassroots and social action continued. We do research on about three to four core subjects. We combine grassroots experience with teaching and reflection. We specialize in denotified tribes. They are much worse off than any other marginalized group in India. A law by the British in 1871 classified them as criminal tribes. The tribes were imprisoned, and their civil liberties were totally denied. Social action and research go hand in hand here. We open up child learning centers for children who would otherwise get nothing from the state.

We also focus on women’s empowerment, and we believe that when you education a woman, you educate a family. Besides the rural tribes, most of this work is actually concentrated in Mumbai women’s groups we have created. We help them put their meager earnings in the banks. The social stigma means the bankers are never pleased to see us. The women are stigmatized and ostracized.

A colleague once asked me, "Why are you taking up the social cause of women’s empowerment?" He thought it was odd since I was a Christian priest and suspected a hidden agenda, perhaps of conversion. I said, "At the human secular level, I would like to promote human rights." These people are among the worst off, and I desired to work for them. Then I said, "I am a Catholic priest. Jesus of Nazareth wanted to reach out to the poorest of the poor and the Old Testament is full of the marginalized: the widow, the stranger, etc. These tribes are the most oppressed among all the tribes." That was one reason that I got into this. Look at my faith. The least among my sisters need the most help.

This particular work takes different levels. When I first began, after finishing my doctorate, I acquainted myself with people in the villages. I tried to understand the people in their own localities, befriended them, and identified their leaders. Upon reflection, I understood these people as the most desperate. When I came back, I started reading more and began an outreach in a place not far from Pune, Baramodi. It is about six hours from Mumbai, 180 kilometers away. We started collaborating between XISR and a person from the denotified tribes community who has his own NGO to start a center. Then I said, "Civil society and academia need to know about these tribes." I decided to organize a one-credit course at the university. Students came from many departments, seeking awareness of who these people really are. Lakshman Gaikwad said, “Father, I do not know any college or university anywhere that offers a course on denotified tribes.” As a mark of his appreciation, he comes and lectures and helps our students. Other colleges and universities come to our center to do research. We are beginning to have more access to policymakers, government, and bureaucrats as they read our research. It is our hope that feelings for the people arise, and sensitivity for the plight of the people will grow. I believe that awareness, outreach, and research can mean that their lot can improve their livelihood.

What does being a Jesuit mean?

Being a Jesuit means having the desire to live for others without compromising my own need to become a better person. The overwhelming desire is to reach out to other people, to transform society, even while transforming myself. It is not that I’m perfect and I want to fix society. I am training myself; I am building my own capacities and my own self-understanding. Only then can I change society. It is like Mahatma Gandhi’s famous saying, “Be the change you wish to see in the world.” It is a very beautiful way Gandhi has put it. So I always try to reflect on long walks and enjoy solitude. I enjoy solitude just as I enjoy the company of people. But I feel that you grow in silence, in solitude. There is a certain density to your life. It is very important to internalize concepts, thinking, religious ideals. How do I change society? The situation of the denotified tribes is terrible. I can change it only through awareness. I can inspire people to be aware, to contribute to the cause. I see change happening, even if it is incremental. It is a very clear concept. Evolutionary changes can have a revolutionary change on society. The thing in India, the tradition, is that many people do very quiet work, amazing work. It is not noticed. Being useful to others also requires a commitment to self. The older spirituality was about killing yourself to help others. I think it is important to love yourself first so that you can love others. Loving doesn’t mean in a narcissistic manner; it is about taking care of yourself and finding balance.

How do the programs at St. Xavier’s serve students? Your work is both within and outside St. Xavier’s. How does this center serve students?

Just as we have a focus outside, the benefits to students on campus are important. The courses and regular classroom inputs, documentary films, and panel discussions are some benefits. We also allow students to go the field, visit our centers, research, conduct interviews, and write a project after. We offer course about development-induced displacement and global warming. The other ways we contribute are by incorporating students from other streams besides the social sciences, like business management and communications. The other level is NGOs, who approach us on these issues. Professors also come and utilize our library.

How do you balance critical and creative thinking with your students?

The issue of the development and displacement is a huge issue in India. The practical application is field work to examine what we mean by development. We take site visits to where development projects, airports, expressways, etc. are being built. We interview the developers, who have a top-down approach. The exposure to real-life situations is a privileged method we have use of.

Development and poor education have resulted in violence, in groups like the Naxalites, the Maoists, the Communalists of the RSS [Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh]. What is development? When one talks about development as economic growth, there is a problem. Development is destroying people, lives, and habitats. The most vulnerable are at the mercy of the elites of the state. Now the prime minister has even acknowledged these violent groups are connected to the idea of development. The forced eviction of people breeds unrest among those not wanting to leave their ancestral lands. Education feeds development. It also receives from development. I have a book under publication tentatively titled The Human Cost of Development.

What values do you try to instill in your students?

The most important values we try to instill are equality, egalitarianism, care for the environment, and critical thinking. We want to teach positive discrimination. In India, what strikes me most is the injustice. We see tremendous oppression here.

I see the complexity here. For these students, the rat race and pressure to succeed can make it difficult to maintain pluralistic values in this competitive environment.

Yes, Xavier’s College is an island. I tell them, you’ll face the real world when you leave. We literally have a fortress, with walls on all four sides. I feel at the level of the college, I think we are doing quite a bit, but we need to scale up to the mainstream to make a real difference. My dream would be to have an organized program to introduce more depth and focus to social justice. The [Social Service League] doesn’t really have much exposure to the outside world. You know, students feel accomplished after doing manual labor and build friendships, and it ends with a great party in the night. There should be more reflection and interaction with the people around. And though the [Social Involvement Program, SIP] is a more serious program and a more sustained effort, it requires more depth and seriousness than is present.

How has faith impacted St. Xavier’s in building student experience?

What we see in Jesus’s life is a model for our students. St Xavier’s students are better off than other students in elite universities in Mumbai. At least here they are exposed to Jesuits working towards social justice and goodwill towards all. At another level, since the Jesuits are exposed to the concepts, we also try to live out the values in our lives and our teaching. These values conversations have led to several innovations. For example, we have evening classes for commerce. The Jesuits felt that the non-elites did not have access to Xavier’s as a higher educational institution. The only problem is that the poor who come have a desire for material wealth, and we have difficulty portraying the justice awareness. However, the program itself is for the poor: the dishwashers, chai wallas, etc. They work all day and have this chance to learn at night. There is a clear Jesuit focus in our admissions policy and our concessions to marginalized groups. However, I still feel that we can scale up our empowerment work in the long term.

What is your relationship like with past students?

Students who keep in touch have some social inclination, either with rural groups or other grassroots work. Students who are really into this are quite few. However, I feel that big numbers of conscious students can happen with clearer university focus and contacts with NGOs and other outside groups.

How do you see St. Xavier’s having an impact in generating students for others in terms of India’s future?

The role that is played now so far is not sufficient in bringing about desire and social change. India is a very complex country. The economics students I talk to mostly want to occupy positions in companies. From those leadership positions, I don’t think they can do much for social justice. This idea of trickle-down theory and crumbs falling from the table of the rich man is not a reality in India. We are lacking a solid intellectual input into these programs. We need a more entrenched program under one umbrella to prepare cadres for justice. One of the reasons minorities are under such great threat from the RSS is that the RSS started systematically and was scaled up and managed to get Hindutva into India’s secular government. 

Today we require change agents for social justice, and that requires leadership. I feel the Jesuits should be more involved in the change-making process, but sometimes we feel so restricted by administrative approval. We need to prepare cadres with means beyond SIP. We must put in our best staff members to engage and challenge students. For example, St. Joseph’s College has a Shepherd’s Program that does more to prepare change-makers. Fearlessness is very important in a hierarchical culture. When there was plague in Gujarat, there was one man who cleaned up the city. The cadres do look to a leader. Cadres are the rank and file, the foot soldiers we need to create for change agents.

Sometimes I think that theological subjects are a waste of time. They should never be studied in isolation. For Jesuit education, too much of academic class inputs are counterproductive. Field exposure is necessary. Academic excellence and social engagement are communicating pillars holding the whole edifice. Students who are involved in social engagement tend to do better academically. They bring serious questions to the classroom. I am not against partying or fun, but academics and social engagement should be the main focus. The pillars enrich each other.

The problems are not really poverty, they are deprivation. As a wealthy person with social capital, I have deprived you of your life, of your water, of your natural resources. This is a grave social injustice. This is an act of murder, an act of agency. We have knowledge of what we do. This kind of deprivation is not an accident. We are snatching things from people who are the legitimate owners of resources. The constitution of India makes provision for compensatory discrimination.