Background: As part of the Education and Social Justice Project, in June 2024, undergraduate student Minahil Mahmud (SFS’26) interviewed Ejub, a peer educator at the John Paul II Youth Pastoral Center in Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina. In this interview, Ejub reflects on growing up in a segregated education system, his path from participant to educator, and how the center’s interreligious program helps young people build friendships, challenge prejudice, and imagine a more inclusive post-war Bosnia.
To start us off, can you tell me about yourself and your background?
OK, so I was born in a really big family. I have three brothers and four sisters. My father is from Bosnia, and my mother is from Croatia, from Zagreb. They met while my father was studying psychology and my mother was studying sociology.
When I remember my childhood, I remember and then always participating in projects which included many people from different religious backgrounds. So, like other religions, it was never an issue, a problem for me. But because I grew up in a mostly Muslim area, Muslim city, I didn't have so much of friends from other religion[s]. I had one friend. He was a Catholic, but we were hanging out until it was time for us to get to school. And because we are a different religion, I would go in the school in the morning and he will go afternoon. Because, unfortunately, [the] system here divides us. [The] system here is telling us that two different people from different religious backgrounds cannot coexist in one classroom. That this model was introduced after the war because I don't know, I assume maybe parents were afraid of their children mixing. And this model is still present nowadays in Bosnia. I once even I usually teach kids about religion, and I used to work in one school where they have, like, two schools under one roof. This is the name of such phenomena, like in the morning the Bosniaks, Muslims go, and afternoon Catholic or vice versa, depending on who is the majority in the city or village. And then after I finish my primary school, I went to Sarajevo to finish my high school, and there my high school was a religious high school. It was a madrasa, like Islamic high school, and also, there I didn't have any opportunity to meet someone else. And even in faculty, because I was studying Islam as a religion and theology (Islamic theology), also, I didn't have so much opportunity to meet someone else that has a different religious background. So this project really helped me to broaden my views and to meet many other Catholics, Orthodox Christians, and to gain many new friends and many other opportunities to share my own experience with other participants, kids. And we also visit primary schools and high schools where we have like a class, where like for instance, we go to the place where the Catholics live and we teach them about Islam or Orthodox Christians. Then we go to the place where the Muslims are the majority, and we talk with them about Catholics or Orthodox, and we go to the Orthodox. You know—you get the point.
So I feel that this project really, really helped me. I didn't have so much stereotype and prejudice about different religions because from the beginning my family was really open, and my father and my mother also, because of their job, they had to have different friends—from colleagues—from different background. And they didn’t, they gave me, like, the support for this project to do when generally, for this way of thinking and living. But I know many of my friends that have an issue with their own family because their own family are against, like, them hanging out with people from other religions because of the war, you know, and or what happened. I mean, I’m not saying, like, the justification. Maybe I understand it because I didn’t lose anyone in the war from my family. But maybe someone who lost, like, [an] uncle, or I don't know someone else, or grandfather, or father. Maybe he will struggle to, like, make friends with people from other nationalities, especially if those nationalities are the one who committed the genocide or war crimes.
And I believe that the main problem is the education, especially this system, that is dividing us from the beginning. Like, a kid who doesn't know anything about religion or anything about ethnicity that doesn’t have, like, opportunity to meet someone else. And this is the case in the primary school, then he goes to the high school, and maybe he will meet someone at the faculty or university.
That really contextualizes the religious dynamics in Bosnia for me. I can tell that there is a connection between loss during the war and prejudices today. I want to come back to this and talk more about how you perceive the religious situation in the country. But first, could you tell me about how you got involved with the center?
Oh, yes. So I was fourth, last year of my faculty, and I remember one coordinator—he called us. He gave us, like, he shared with us an email, “if you want to participate in the project.” It was a workshop about how to be an educator. So I found that very interesting; like how to give lectures, how to use PowerPoint presentations, how to make some interesting icebreakers games, such things. So I found that very interesting, and we came here, we slept here for three days, and we met.
That was maybe the first time that we met students from other cities that are members of different communities, and we saw, they have the same issues, same problems, same struggles as we do that are; they are not normal people, as we are. And the only thing that is separating us is religion. And the religion shouldn't be even. Religion shouldn't be separating us, because every religion is talking about peace, about cooperation. But I saw that they maybe saw us the same way we saw them, but when we got an opportunity to talk, you know, to make jokes or something else, we saw that we have a lot, lot, lot more similarities than something that is like dividing us. And from then I was more involved in projects, especially because institution organizes like trips around Bosnia to show how rich is our country, like how rich we have our culture, how every like how many different cultures like melt here, you know, like melting pot and how different empires were here, like Roman, Ottoman, Austro-Hungarian, and every every empire left some mark. And we saw during these trips, we got to appreciate our culture, our nature, and something that is the most, like, precious—and that is people, different people. And from that, like I remember it was 2018, from that period till now, I participated in this project mainly as an educator, but we also had to go through some workshops in order to be educators.
What sort of workshops? How were you trained for this role?
Well, every now and then, this center organizes some very famous people who talk about peace, who talk about many obstacles that we face, and how to talk with the participants, with students, with pupils. So, like, maybe every two to three months we have workshops where we participate as a participant, and then we always enhance our knowledge, improve our skills. So it's not like we finished something and that's it. Like, we are always improving, improving by learning from others, and also when we go on some trips, we also heard stories from locals, from the imams or priests, also like broaden our views about this interreligious project.
That's amazing. You had this support system coming into the role, but you are also continuously growing through the program. You feel like you're still learning, even as a senior educator. Is that one of the reasons you continue working with the center?
Yes, yes, yes, I know. I mean, there are also some educators here even longer, maybe since 2015. But yes, it's also like, as I said, as a consequence of war; many of us live in clean environments. Like when I say clean environments, I mean the one ethno-religious group is majority, and the other one is like minority is very small. So you don’t get the opportunity to meet someone else. And especially because I finished my high school, Islamic High School and Faculty of Islamic Theology, I got curious about someone else, how someone else thinks. Like, I got a bit bored of how my community just thinks on one pattern. So when I went here, and I saw that people have different way of thinking, different way of behaving and I saw that as something good, because I don't know, it's just like when you change some environment, when you change your group, which you hang out, you saw something different that that is, that's something that is maybe making you feel it makes you feel better.
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. So, I was observing the workshop yesterday and today for a little while. And of course, I couldn’t understand what exactly was being said, but I was able to pick up on the dynamic between the peer educators and the participants. I noticed that, like all of the peer educators seem to have their own talents and personality traits that they are able to contribute to the program. Yours seems to be your humor. So what do you think makes the peer educator role so important to the program? Why do you think the Center relies on young people like you to get through to the participants?
Well. Our parents are, I think they’re maybe stuck in that war, and that is something that is stopping the progress. And I think we are the hope, like, we are the next generation, we should be able to bridge over these war consequences and what war brought to us, generally speaking. So, especially here, all of the educators are born after the war. I was also born after the war, so why would I hate someone else who didn’t, who wasn't even born during the war, just because he’s from a different religion or he’s from that people. So I think especially educating new generations is something that we hope that will change society, will change our country in a better way.
But then why do you think you're able to get through to the students easier than, I don't know, one of the older coordinators of the program? Why are peer educators so important?
Well, I think we are maybe some kind of a link between them and the peer educators, and like if they maybe don't feel so free to speak about their own struggles and issues, problems with the peer educators, they can always share with us. Because in the beginning, we split them into five different groups. I mean, these groups are mixed like we just mix them randomly. We didn’t look about. We didn’t split them by their religion or by their look or names or whatever. So at the end of every day, we have, like, an evaluation. We sit with them around maybe 15 to 20 minutes, and we talk about “How was your day?,” “What did you find interesting?,” “What did you find boring?,” or “Do you have any complaints, or what do you wish to see tomorrow?,” and “Do you have any problems?” And they share, often they share with us, especially if anyone wants a private conversation, like with the educator, he can have [one]. Yes. Well, we have many examples of such conversations.
As someone who has a lot of close interactions with the students, how would you describe their growth in the program?
Well, I'm glad that from every year, I see them coming back. So that is also some information for us, that we are doing at least a good job, because they are coming back; they want more. We are also glad that they made lots of different friends from different cities, and they gained new friendships, and especially if we see them on social media hanging out, this is a huge accomplishment. Someone from one community met someone from another community and he will be, we hope, able to change his own family at first, his own village or street. That, I mean, this project is gonna take many years and many efforts to make some progress, but hopefully we will succeed. Maybe not my generation. Maybe next generation, maybe them. So we will pass—I hope we will pass—this torch to them.
That’s amazing! Is there a moment or a particular story during your time here at the Center that is particularly meaningful to you?
Uh, well, yes, I had a colleague, a friend. He was Serbian Orthodox, and he said, like “I was like an ordinary Serbian Orthodox… like, I hate Muslims. The people who had committed war crimes, I saw them as heroes and such things.” And once he went on a camp, accidentally, and he went to another city. He went to, you know, these two guys, these two were educators, peer educators. So they organized this project for peacebuilding. Then one of them said our Orthodox Church has, I don’t know, 100 members or such things. And he said like, “Why are you saying ‘our’ Orthodox Church? That is my Orthodox Church.” Well, he asked him. Well, okay. “From which city you are?” He said, “From East Sarajevo.” And he replied, “Well, you’re living in East Sarajevo, and I’m living in my city, and your church is in my city, so I'm more entitled to say, my Orthodox Church.” And he was like really shocked with this, this phrase, "my Orthodox Church." And he saw, like, that this view that he had was wrong. So he started to participate in such projects. He started to gain new friends. Before that, he didn't have any friends from Croats, from Bosniaks. So now, like nowadays, he has visited more than 70 mosques and Catholic churches. And he’s now in the—like in Bosnia, we have like organization like an interreligious organization—and he’s now working in that organization that is sharing peace with everyone else.
That's such an incredible story.
Yeah. But these are, like, I believe that he’s not the only example, because he was living in his closed community, closed Orthodox community. So he went to schools where they were all maybe thinking the same, and he didn't have [an] opportunity to meet someone else. So I believe that especially people from rural areas have issues with that. And maybe if they even wanted to change their views, the problem is maybe family, because they will have some prejudice, stereotypes about that.
For this center to be able to help someone on that journey, I think that’s incredible. Now I'm hoping we can take a step back and talk about the connection between religion and peacebuilding. Either personally or based on your experiences here at the center, why do you think these two go hand in hand?
Well. I think every religion is a religion of peace—Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism—is the religion of peace in its essence. And unfortunately, during history, religion was used as manipulation of people, you know, to send people to war, to send people out, you know, to free some country and say non-believers are living there. “You have to; this is our God’s order.” So I believe that every religion is calling for people to be peaceful, to live, to coexist. But here in this Center, if we like, if we use religion to make people to…
[RECORDING PAUSED]
We were talking about the connection between religion and peacebuilding.
Like, if we use religion to approach them by their religion, I think it would be more, it would be easier for them to understand that we all share the same country. We have to live together. But the problem is that here, the ethnicity follows the religion. So Croats are Catholics, Bosniaks are Muslims, Serbians are Orthodox. So, like you imagine, maybe in America, you have American Jews, you have American Catholics, you have American Protestants, you have American Muslims, but there are American. But here, like ethnicity is followed by religion, and during history, many religions defined a nation. Even in some religious communities, you have this ethno- like, ethnicity word, maybe. We have Islamic community that is Islamic, and the members of the Islamic community can be Bosniaks, can be Albanians, Arabs, I don't know, Kurds, Turks as such. And everyone who chooses to be in the Catholic Church, there are many mainly Croat people, but now you have Ukrainians, you have Polish people, you have a small community maybe of Hungarians, but they’re Catholic. But in the Serbian Orthodox Church, their church is called Serbian Orthodox Church, so everyone who is a member of their community is assumed to be a Serbian. So, like, we have this kind of problem.
My idea is that we, for a second, forget about this identity, ethnicity, and we use religion to make people hang out, to make people communicate, and to cooperate. And live together. Because if we use this, it can be a root of a problem, because you know, over the period, nations have changed, ethnicities have changed. Some people, like, in the past, their ethnicity was like this, now it’s different. So you know we have historians who are like fighting, who is who is what, what is what, you know. So I think this is also an obstacle, this ethnicity, especially when ethnicity is used to make people fight over anything.
So is that why, in the introductory session yesterday, you started off by making the children divide into groups based on arbitrary factors instead of their religion or ethnicity?
Yes, yes, yes, this is usually the main goal. For people to get to know someone else. Bosnia is like it went through different history and different culture, and different, you know, like I don't know, like we have a different definition of a nation maybe in France, in Germany. Everyone who holds their passport is their citizen and it's their nation. But here, like, it's different.
In what sense?
Because, like, the borders, were changed a lot, [and] in many communities, shared. This area is flooded with the wars from the Ottoman Empire to now. So many people had to move from one country to a different country, so it is an obstacle.
Speaking of obstacles, I'm curious, first of all, what obstacles have you experienced in your role here, either as a peer educator or as a previous participant? And on the flip side, what has been the most rewarding aspect of working here?
Yeah, well. To begin with obstacles, I believe that the system is the main obstacle. And the politicians, especially them, because every time they say something bad about other ethno-religious groups, you feel the tension, even though maybe someone else is not looking at you in such way, in such manner, but you would assume because of these speeches, that he will look at you differently, and you have some different approach to him. Like, you'll be more cautious. And I believe that also it is a problem because many people have families that lost someone during the war and don't and don't want to listen about someone else, especially if it's belonging to a nation that committed those crimes. For example, people here in Bosnia don't want to live together. But when they meet in Germany or France, if they meet someone else, that is different religion, different ethnicity, but they say, “I’m from Bosnia,” you would be glad. Like, “Oh, you’re from Bosnia!” You know, he would hang out with you. But here, like, no.
But things are changing nowadays because, I think, because of this globalization. People, especially young people, have access to the Internet, have access to social media, have a way to learn something. What is true, what is not, but also on the flip side can be also different because if they watch media, they can get, like, a wrong picture of someone else. And as something rewarding, I will say, like, when you see the people change their views in a better way. When you see people hanging out, when you see them participating in different projects that have a goal of helping people, no matter what is their religion, no matter what is their ethnic background, and especially many of these participants have become educators, and they also share that same goal, same idea of bringing peace to this region. But I say that also we have to work harder, harder, we need more time to change, change this society. It's not an easy task but we have to struggle. Yeah. That is what is coming to my mind.
Mm-hmm. OK. I guess my final question would then be, what hopes or vision do you have for the interreligious program moving forward?
Well, I think, I believe, I hope that it could be more widely accepted, it would be maybe more involved in schools, education. Like, some people finish high school and primary school, they don't learn anything about some neighbor. So, to be maybe the… I know it's it's not so popular to mix with politics, but we will have to ensure that our plans and our workshops, maybe, go into the educational system. That every school should visit a mosque, Orthodox Church, Catholic Church, Jewish synagogue, or any other temples and religious objects. And every school should visit maybe the places where different ethno-religious groups have lost their lives during the war, like, where the Muslims were killed, where the Orthodox were killed, in also Catholics and Jews during the Second World War.
So we should be having this culture of remembering, because if we have this culture of remembering, we would try to make a situation where we would never think about war and revenge on someone else. Like, we can use another example of Germany after World War II, as an example, or I don’t know, maybe South African Republic. The Apartheid—it was present. And especially because, maybe, in South Africa, it was division between whites and Black and mixed, but here, mostly Bosniaks, Croats, Serbians, and they all look the same. So, like you couldn't tell by this. Someone looks he is the member of this community of this religion. So we are the same nation, I would say… and Bosnia is something that should unite us. Okay, we can have rules from different countries, or different culture, different religions. But we should all try to promote our country as something unique in Europe, where we have, like, all of these different backgrounds, different history, different culture, and such. Yeah, Sarajevo is often described as Jerusalem because you have the mosque, synagogue, Orthodox Church, Catholic Church, right next to each other. Very close. Yes.
On that note, those are all the questions that I prepared. Is there anything else that you would like to share?
I don’t know. If something comes to my mind, yes.
This was a very fruitful discussion. I really enjoyed talking to you. I really enjoyed your insights. Thank you so much for sitting down with me.
You’re welcome. Thank you.
