Background: As part of the Education and Social Justice Project, undergraduate student Minahil Mahmud (SFS’26) interviewed Manuel, a high school student and participant in the Let’s Step Forward Together interfaith program at the John Paul II Youth Pastoral Center in Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina. Manuel reflected on growing up in a divided community and how the program challenged his assumptions and helped him form lasting interfaith connections. He hopes to return as a peer educator.
Let's start with you telling me about yourself and your background.
Hey, I'm Manuel. I go to high school for economics. I really love to work with people, to be around other people, and do some things that include working with people. I don't like to work just me alone, I love teamwork.
So what drew you to the center? Why did you want to join as a participant?
Well, I came here because the first project I ever came to was Democracy [Project], because I was interested in the project. And then I really liked the center so much, so I started going to other activities and other programs of the center. And I'm really happy I got the chance to meet many other people here and to be part of amazing projects that this center organized.
Thank you for sharing that. So what do you think of the interfaith project now that you've been here for a few days? What has the experience been like for you?
Well, it's been amazing, like all the previous meetings we've had on this project. It's really amazing because we learn about other cultures. Specifically, I learned a lot of things about Orthodox [Christianity] and Islam that I didn't know about. And I think many of my Muslim friends here and Orthodox friends maybe learned something new about the Catholic Church. And I think it's really nice that we have an opportunity to learn about other people and their traditions. So traditions, learning about people around you, that seems to be the center of the work, the learning that has taken place here.
That's amazing, I'm glad to hear that. So we're sitting here in a chapel, right? I think that's very symbolic of the center and the work that they do. I'm curious, how do you understand the role of religion in the center’s work?
I mean, of course, religion is important, but I don't think this center is only about religion. For example, there are a lot of participants that are Muslims. I mean, for example, you are Muslim, of course. So many people that come here to the center are not Catholics. And the center doesn't ask you your name, your religion. I mean, it is a Catholic organization, but they are open for everyone. You can come here to be part of some projects that are for everyone. There are no projects in the center that are specifically for Muslims, for Catholics, or something like that. Everyone can come here and feel welcomed. Because it's just such a good organization that accepts everyone, not just Catholics, even though it is a Catholic organization. I mean, the religion really is important to them. I mean, we've got the chapel, we've got everything. But really, it's not that important that they will not let people of other religions to come to the center.
Okay, so there is no discrimination between people on the basis of religion. Okay, I understand. What do you think is the connection between religion and community-building or peace-building in Bosnia?
Well, it's playing a little bit [of a] role now, the religion. And I mean, it's not a bad thing, but if you are just being led by religion and not with your brain, then it's kind of hard to leave the country. Because yes, religion is important, but you also need to know that you need to cooperate with other people who are of different religion[s]. And for example, if my religion and someone else's religion are not agreeing on something, we need to find some kind of compromise and make it good for both of us. So yes, religion is important, but I think it shouldn't play this big of a role it is playing right now, because this country has three big religions, and of course, some of the things are different in those religions. So yes, it is important, but it shouldn't be this high, it shouldn't have this much influence it has right now.
So what I understand is that, right now, religion has a very big influence on various aspects of society and you think that shouldn't be the case?
I mean, yes, kind of. Specifically, because many of the people that lead communities don't really understand their religions properly. And for example, many Catholics think they are the best religion, they are the only right religion, that Muslims and Orthodox are not right or vice versa. And that's kind of a problem because they don't understand that other religions exist and that you don't have to hate other religions. I mean, you shouldn't hate other religions. As God said, who hates each other, it's like you can't go to church if you hate someone; you can't ask for forgiveness from God if you hate someone. So that's a problem with many people who lead communities now. They are led by their religion, and they believe their religion is the only correct answer and that no one else, no other religion is right; they are all wrong, and they don't want to accept their theories.
Thank you for explaining that. So how does this center tackle that problem that you're describing?
I mean, yeah, it definitely did. Specifically in this project. I mean, we had different dinner teams. We got Orthodox dinner, Catholic dinner, and Muslim dinner. We went to a mosque, to an Orthodox church, to a Catholic church multiple times now. And it really brought me closer to the traditions of Muslims and Orthodox here in Bosnia. And I also learned some new things about Catholic religion here. So I think the center really did a great job of promoting all three religions to us and showing us how religions, even though they are important to me, to everyone, as individuals, they shouldn't be the thing that will make us do our decisions. For example, I have a lot of Muslim friends, and I don't see a reason why I don't have a lot of Muslim friends. I mean, they're good people, they're really good friends, great friends. I think the center taught us that religion is not that important. You have your religion; your friends have their religion. If someone is of other religion than you, then you can be friends. You can be friends. You don't have to hate each other. You can not love someone because they're a bad person, even though they're your religion. And they can be opposite religions. I mean, the center taught us that the important thing is that someone is a good person, not either Muslim, Catholic or Orthodox, Jew, whatever.
Thank you for explaining that. So, how then would you say Bosnians should define their identity? How do you see yourself as a young, 18-year-old Bosnian citizen, if you think religion should take a back seat in your identity?
Well, I mean, I am Catholic, as I already said, but I think it's not the most important part of my life. I mean, I'm not going around saying, like, I'm Catholic, I'm Catholic, I'm Catholic. If someone asks me, then I will say. Or, we go to church together or something like that. But when I meet someone like, for example, you, I'm just going to introduce myself, my name, how old I am, and something like that. And I think religion is important to me, but I don't want to go around and brag about my religion to make other people, like, for example, I don't want to be the person, like, that will go to a Muslim or Orthodox and say Catholics are the only right ones, you need to go to a Catholic church and something like that. It's really not that important. I mean, it's important to me, but it shouldn't be, it shouldn't be controlling my life to go around and make other people feel bad because of their religion. So I really try to respect everyone here and everyone in my life. Because, as I said, for me it's important that you're a good person, not if you're a Muslim, or atheist, or Orthodox. I just want to be friends with you if you're a good person. If you're not, I'm not going to be friends with you. And it's just simple like that.
That's a very good philosophy to have in life. It sounds to me like you have a pretty solid idea of your goals. Has the center and this experience, or maybe even prior experiences here at the center, shaped your thinking or maybe changed your vision for the future?
Well, it definitely did. As I said, my first project ever was Democracy, and there, I met a lot of my friends that are still my best friends. And a lot of them are Muslims. And to be honest, before the center, I really didn't have that much opportunity to meet other Muslim people because my city is quite divided, and we don't really hang out with Muslims. And they don't hang out with us because we're divided since the first grade. And it's just like that. You don't have a chance to speak to someone who is of [an]other religion. And only if you have someone in your family. And still, that's a different thing. And then, I came here, and I met a lot of Muslims that are still my best friends. And I really don't care if they're Muslims or whatever they are. I know that they're good people. And they don't discriminate [against] me because I'm Catholic. They're friends with me because they think I'm a good person as well.
And many of them—actually, the first ever meeting, they were interested in how it is like at a Mass. So I was like, you can come with me. We can sit in the back row, and you can see everything. And they were like, “Yes, we can.” We could. And we were here. They saw it. They were impressed. And I also hoped that one day, I would be able to be part, to see on Fridays, I don't know how to say it in English, but the Muslim prayer on Fridays. I don't know the name… jummah. I would like to see how it looks like. I mean, I want to see it because I want to see what is done there. Because what my friends told me, it's really not that much different from a Mass. The imam is saying some topics that are important at the time, and similar things. And that's also happening in our church. So, yeah, I think it could be a really nice experience. And I hope to go to jummah one day.
What was your experience of the religious sites trip? How did you like that trip when we went to the mosque and the two churches?
The first time I ever went to [a] mosque was in April with the center. And it was the same mosque as we went two days ago, I believe. It's really one of the most beautiful buildings in this country, I believe. It's really, it's big, first of all. And I really like the design, the calligraphy on the walls. And I mean, interesting things. There are no pictures, no statues. For example, in our church, we have a lot of statues, as you can see. And it was really interesting. And then we went to the old Orthodox church, another one we were a few days ago. And it's really, really old, I believe from [the] eleventh century. And I learned a lot about Orthodox traditions, how they are different from Catholic, and what are the similarities. Also similarities between Islam and Catholicism. And I really enjoyed, and of course I got a chance to see some Catholic buildings, Catholic churches here in Sarajevo I never saw before. And I really enjoyed visiting all those places. And I hope I will have a chance to visit more of these religious places. I only visited two Catholic churches and two mosques in Bosnia. And I hope that I will see more of those places in future.
I hope so too. It sounds like it was a very rewarding experience for you that aligned with your goal of learning more about other religions. How were your experiences engaging with other participants from different parts of Bosnia and from different faiths during this past week?
I mean, it was really amazing. Because many people here, I already knew about them. We were only friends in contact or something like that. But I also met a lot of new people, new persons. And to be honest, as I said, I'm sleeping in a room with a Muslim. And I really don't care. I mean, all the time I came here, I was always sleeping with someone with a different religion. I mean, Orthodox, Muslims, and everything. And I really don't care about that. We could speak freely. I mean, I have a lot of Muslim friends, and we were like sleeping together and talking about religion and similar topics here in Bosnia until like 4:00 or 5:00 p.m. Wow. It was really interesting. We saw how many similarities we have. And the previous week I also met a lot of new friends, Muslims, Catholics, and similar. I think there are no Orthodox in this camp, as my contestants, unfortunately. And I met, as I said, a lot of new people. And I learned about those new traditions. We had iftar last night, like the Muslim dinner, and it was really amazing. This new dish, I discovered a lot of cheese, and different types of cheese, I believe. It was really amazing. And I don't know how I never knew about that dish before. And of course, some Orthodox dishes I tried. I mean, I really learned a lot from my friends, from the coordinators of this project. And I'm really happy that I could be part of this and to experience all those things I experienced.
I'm really glad to hear that. I'll move on to the final questions. How do you envision the future of Bosnia, as a young person who will have a role in shaping it?
Well, I think as many young people, like for example my friends, we really have big motivation to change this country. And I believe that through some education and more young people involved in the work of this center and similar institutions, the future of this country could be really improved. Because if we allow ourselves to be shadows of the current regime, like the things that our old ones are teaching us, because I believe they're still in fear because of the war, we're really not going to make anything better here in this country. Because they're still closing themselves. They're scared. They don't want you to go out with people of other religions. Because they're just scared that something will happen again if they open up and if they go out with people of other religions. So I believe that we... I mean, a lot of young people know that that's not the case and that we're all equal. I mean, we're all humans. So, yeah, I believe that if we were to lead the country, we could actually make some differences to see how we're all equal and that no one should be like... I don't know, like, not [be] equal in front of law because of their name, their religion and similar things. That is unfortunately happening right now. So I can see this country improving in the future, definitely.
I hope so. Those are very important goals. I get the sense from your answer that you believe there's a very strong connection between religion and the way it is used or misused by politics, especially in this country. Final question, and this may be a bit of a complicated one, but I'm wondering, how do you understand the role of interfaith organizations in empowering young people in Bosnia?
Well, I think this is the only interfaith institution, or just institutions, that I know about in Bosnia. And I think this really is the definition of interfaith/interreligious. Because they don't care if you are Muslim, if you are Orthodox, they only care if you are a good person. For example, if they want to hire someone, they don't look if you're Catholic. I mean, they are a Catholic organization, but of course, if someone who is Muslim has more qualifications than a Catholic, they will hire a Muslim person. Many people that work here in the center are not Catholics, are Muslims, Orthodox, and similar things. That's the first definition: to see that this is an interreligious institution. They don't hire only Catholics; they hire everyone from Bosnia. And to them, we are all equal.
All these participants, we are all invited here: Muslims, Catholics, Orthodox, everyone is welcome here. And it's really amazing how the center is taking care of all of us, especially when it's interreligious projects. They don't serve pork because of Muslims, and I completely agree with that. I'm not a big fan of pork either. And that just shows how they care about the participants that are for the [other] religions, not just Catholics. The center also has special rooms for Muslims, so they can do their prayers. They have the room for Catholics. So this really is the definition of interfaith and interreligious, because everyone is welcome and everyone can feel so... Can I say homie here? Because it's just such a nice place. I mean, everyone is welcome, no one is judged. You are not discriminated [against] because you're Muslim, you're Catholic, you're Orthodox, or whatever. So I really love it here.
I'm really glad to hear that. And I really appreciate the opportunity of speaking to you, not once, but twice over the last two days. I've learned a lot from you, and I value how you are so open about your experiences and your thoughts. Before I end, I'm wondering if there's anything that you think I should have touched on or that I didn't ask about that you would like to share.
Well, I don't think there's anything. Maybe. Well, actually, there's one thing that's kind of controversial here. It's the corruption inside of religious institutions here. Unfortunately, many people don't see that, but it's happening. First thing, in Catholic churches, I didn't think about it as I go to Catholic church. It's really like they just ask you for money for so many different things that don't make sense. And that money is used for all of those like pastors or pastors for their cars. I mean, many of them are driving cars you can't imagine anyone with normal salary could afford. I'm not really sure how it's in mosques here in Bosnia. I heard that there are some cases, but I still can't guarantee you anything because I'm not experienced with that. But for Catholic churches, I can say that, unfortunately, there is corruption in some of these churches. My church specifically, I mean, it's really, we were giving money for 10 years to renovate our church and it was never renovated. And we don't know where the money went. But we gave money for renovating the church for 10 years. Like every Sunday, you give some, somewhat like money, and nothing happened. So that's the big problem here. And I think that you can actually do something about church. And I don't know who is like, in charge of Orthodox churches or Islamic organizations here, but something should be done inside of the original institution, the religious institutions themselves, so they could be what they really are: the religious institutions. As I said, I'm speaking just about Catholic churches because I'm not experienced with other[s], with mosques and Orthodox churches and everything. So I can speak for the believers of that faith.
Thank you for sharing that anyway. I think it was an important insight into the problems that are affecting religious institutions in Bosnia. Do you see yourself coming back, maybe later, as a peer educator or a participant again next year?
Can I just say, I knew about the center before because the first time I was here was in 2016 or 17. But I was not interested in it because I was [an] introvert, and I didn't want to come here among people. But then, this project was amazing, and many people decided to go. So I was like, well, then I could, maybe, go to see how it's like. I thought I wouldn't like it here, but I really liked it. And now I'm coming here to every project, and I hope to be a peer educator next year. So yeah, I think the Democracy [Project] was my big step to actually be part of this center and this community, this amazing community here. I'm really glad to hear that you were able to find your confidence and then become comfortable here.
So to summarize what I heard from you today, you first found out about the center through the Democracy Project, but then you discovered the Interfaith Project, and it's been a positive experience for you. You said that compromise is important for religious groups when interacting with each other in order to avoid conflict and create understanding. You believe that religion should not have such a large influence on all aspects of society as it currently does. And that it's important to learn about other traditions, the way you are doing here at the center through activities and themed dinners and spending time with people from different faith backgrounds. And then towards the end, you said that the center is the definition of interfaith collaboration because everyone is welcome here, regardless of their background. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with me. I'll end the recording here.
