A Discussion with Jean Paul Kagabo, Executive Secretary, Genocide Survivors Students Association, Kigali, Rwanda
With: Jean Paul Kagabo Berkley Center Profile
June 21, 2016
Background: As part of the Education and Social Justice Fellowship Project, undergraduate student Mariam Diefallah interviewed Jean Paul Kagabo, executive secretary of the Genocide Survivors Students Association (Association des Etudiants Et Éleves Rescapés Du Genocide, AERG), in June 2016. Kagabo discusses the importance of education and different methods of reconciliation among young Rwandan survivors.
Can you please tell me about yourself and your position at AERG?
I am the executive secretary here at AERG. I am in charge of the activities here and the management of staff at the association. Before I became the secretary, I was a member and a leader at AERG. I was a member since I was at school and until I was a student at the University of Rwanda. At the end of 2011, when I finished the university, I became the secretary.
How would you define justice?
It is not easy to define justice. For me personally, I think of my country when I think of justice, because it was not easy to live with those who killed our families, but we did not have any choice. This is why our government had a big role. At the beginning it was not easy to understand how to live with the people who killed our families, but with time, we started to understand how to adapt. So when some of them asked for pardon, it was given. But some people asked for pardon that was not coming from their hearts: they asked for it only to be free and get out of jail. Some people, after they came out of jail, continued to kill other people. But now, I think it is better because we came to understand reconciliation.
For example, when I was at university, I met different Rwandans. Children of both the survivors and the perpetrators were studying together at the same classroom, and sometimes we would be living together in the same rooms—we had lunch together. It was difficult, of course, especially because many of the children of the perpetrators were living in denial, but after some time, when they learn more and get more education, they become more aware and understanding of what happened. For us, as young survivors, we tried really hard to be able to live with them.
As young survivors, how do you think education was important in that process of reconciliation?
Education is very important. As survivors we did not have any income. Some people, even if they had property before, it was lost, and they did not have any kind of insurance to get back their property. We did not also have enough money to be educated, of course. This is why our government gave us a fund to all survivors, so they become able to go to schools. They also helped us to find jobs and different ways to get income to continue studying and go to university.
The country’s priority is for all Rwandans to have education, but I think for survivors, it was even more important because it was like a gift for us. Before the genocide, our families did not have that chance to go and study, and the government at that time banned the Tutsis from going to schools. They were allowed to go to primary schools only, but not secondary schools or universities. It was all politics, and many of our families did not go to schools, because the seats at schools and universities were mostly given to the Hutus. So for us, education is very important.
How is AERG important for Rwanda’s future?
Our motto is to strive for a bright future. We encourage our members to study and to search for a better future. We tell our members that the best revenge is to become a powerful person in your field of study; it is to take responsibility and to work hard for the government, or for a good business. This is what we ask our members to do: to become independent. It is the best revenge to be successful, because those who killed your family wanted you to be weak. We want our members to fight and overcome the difficulties and to have a good future.
How would you define development? How is AERG helping in Rwanda’s development?
We have many activities that help with the development of our country. First of all, there is a project for the society where we teach students, especially at secondary schools, how to fight HIV, so we show them and teach them how to avoid and fight HIV. Also, we have some projects where we work together to prepare for one month before the commemoration period; we go to our communities and help people, especially the widows. So we help them through providing cows for the poor families, for example. We also give cows to the Hutus who protected the Tutsis during the genocide as a way to show that we are thankful to them. We also do community work with different people. We also try to help the survivors who have trauma problems with counselling projects, especially during the commemoration period.
What kind of challenges do you face as part of your job?
We have a lot of financial problems because the donors and the grants are not always enough to cover our survivors’ needs. Members come sometimes here to find solutions for the problems they are facing, but we do not always have enough funds. Some survivors still do not have places to live in. Also, some university graduates are unemployed, and they do not have families to help them 'till they find jobs, or even any places to go to, especially in the villages, where they do not have any houses or anyone to help them. So they come here to seek help because they do not have any other choices. It is a very big issue we have today, because our members do not have relatives, they do not own property, and they find it very difficult to start their lives after they graduate. But I think it has been getting better, because most of the graduates now know that they will have a lot of responsibilities, so they start asking earlier and looking for ways to help them become independent.
Is AERG solely dependent on Rwandan funds?
We accept donations from different places. There is the Survivors Fund based in the United Kingdom which helps us and other survivor organizations, as well.
Before the interview, you mentioned an existing family structure among the survivors. Can you please tell me more about how it works, and if it helps with the challenges AERG faces?
The family is the basis for AERG, because as I told you before, these families were our way of sharing our stories. If you have trauma, you will not be able to study. First you have to talk about the social problems you are facing, your trauma, your genocide story, before being able to join in a classroom and do well or study at school. It was not easy for us to study at the beginning, when many people were still facing these problems.
When the young survivors started making families, they would gather with their synthetic family and discuss the problems they face. So they would have someone whom they trust, have confidence in, and whom they can share their stories with. When they shared, they became calmer and felt better. So within the family, if I tell you my problem, and you tell me yours, we will realize we have many things in common. Many people would cry when they talk about their problems, but that sharing made the family's connections stronger, so with time they became able to smile and laugh and share different and more things than their genocide stories.
When you deal with your psychological problems, you can start dealing with the financial ones. Some members help each other and contribute monthly to their families, so the members who are working and have salaries would help those still in school. In the beginning, the families would start by sharing everything that is considered a necessary material, even pens and notebooks. Also, within the families, if you are still in school and you are facing a problem, you can always talk to your mother and father within the family and tell them to help you. Also, you always go out together once a week to make sure everyone is fine; we would go together to the commemoration events as well. So even if the perpetrators see you, they would know you became tough and strong and independent.
I had a family when I was at university, and we are still in touch till today; we have a WhatsApp group. I have two families—one from university and one from high school. If someone has a wedding, we would all go together and help with all the ceremonies and functions of the wedding. It is a very helpful structure.
On your website it is mentioned that you have a hotline offering psychological and legal help. How are the two connected in AERG’s vision?
I think the two are connected because these are the two main problems facing all survivors. The helpline began in 2012 when we realized that many of our members do not have the financial needs to come here and discuss their problems. It costs them a lot of money to come all the way from the villages to Kigali. It also takes time to look into the problems and to see if we have to submit proposals for funds, for example, so even if they come, they would not find a place to stay in to follow up on their problems. So this is how the idea came up. Our members can call for free from anywhere around the country, so they can express their problems on the phone, and we would give them advices over the phone for free as well. If they need to come for a big challenge, it is easier to manage it as we can help with the cost of coming here.
Are the problems facing women different from those facing men?
Yes, of course. Women here face different problems, and for us here in AERG we take more care of women more than men when solving the problems, because even if as a man you do not have a place to stay at for a night, it would be much more difficult for women facing the same problem. It is not easy for the girls, also, when it comes to trauma problems. The trauma cases we have seen are worse for girls more than guys; they suffer from trauma more. Also, women do not own property. It is easier for men to own property because the relatives and the people would say that they are responsible for the family, but women are not. So it is not easy for them.
How does AERG include younger generations, including those who did not witness the genocide?
The survivors are the main active members of the association; they are the first category we have. But those who are willing to understand our problems, they can be members, and they are welcome to participate in our activities and to help us in fighting the genocide denial, so they are the second category. But those who do not have the same relationship with the genocide do not usually join—the children of perpetrators, for example. Many people do not accept that they come and join us because we accept those who do not have a relationship or a responsibility of the genocide. The third category of members are honorary, so they are people like heads of schools, professors at universities, people who took orphans as their children—so we think of them as honorary members.
Is there anything else you would like to add?
Yea, first of all I want to tell you that many foreign people do not know our stories, but you came to the field and saw the Rwandan history and the survivors’ stories. You saw how we are living together here for yourself, so I want to ask you to share the information you gathered, so for you to be our ambassador, to share our stories, and to try and teach others on how we are trying to develop our country’s future.
I am the executive secretary here at AERG. I am in charge of the activities here and the management of staff at the association. Before I became the secretary, I was a member and a leader at AERG. I was a member since I was at school and until I was a student at the University of Rwanda. At the end of 2011, when I finished the university, I became the secretary.
How would you define justice?
It is not easy to define justice. For me personally, I think of my country when I think of justice, because it was not easy to live with those who killed our families, but we did not have any choice. This is why our government had a big role. At the beginning it was not easy to understand how to live with the people who killed our families, but with time, we started to understand how to adapt. So when some of them asked for pardon, it was given. But some people asked for pardon that was not coming from their hearts: they asked for it only to be free and get out of jail. Some people, after they came out of jail, continued to kill other people. But now, I think it is better because we came to understand reconciliation.
For example, when I was at university, I met different Rwandans. Children of both the survivors and the perpetrators were studying together at the same classroom, and sometimes we would be living together in the same rooms—we had lunch together. It was difficult, of course, especially because many of the children of the perpetrators were living in denial, but after some time, when they learn more and get more education, they become more aware and understanding of what happened. For us, as young survivors, we tried really hard to be able to live with them.
As young survivors, how do you think education was important in that process of reconciliation?
Education is very important. As survivors we did not have any income. Some people, even if they had property before, it was lost, and they did not have any kind of insurance to get back their property. We did not also have enough money to be educated, of course. This is why our government gave us a fund to all survivors, so they become able to go to schools. They also helped us to find jobs and different ways to get income to continue studying and go to university.
The country’s priority is for all Rwandans to have education, but I think for survivors, it was even more important because it was like a gift for us. Before the genocide, our families did not have that chance to go and study, and the government at that time banned the Tutsis from going to schools. They were allowed to go to primary schools only, but not secondary schools or universities. It was all politics, and many of our families did not go to schools, because the seats at schools and universities were mostly given to the Hutus. So for us, education is very important.
How is AERG important for Rwanda’s future?
Our motto is to strive for a bright future. We encourage our members to study and to search for a better future. We tell our members that the best revenge is to become a powerful person in your field of study; it is to take responsibility and to work hard for the government, or for a good business. This is what we ask our members to do: to become independent. It is the best revenge to be successful, because those who killed your family wanted you to be weak. We want our members to fight and overcome the difficulties and to have a good future.
How would you define development? How is AERG helping in Rwanda’s development?
We have many activities that help with the development of our country. First of all, there is a project for the society where we teach students, especially at secondary schools, how to fight HIV, so we show them and teach them how to avoid and fight HIV. Also, we have some projects where we work together to prepare for one month before the commemoration period; we go to our communities and help people, especially the widows. So we help them through providing cows for the poor families, for example. We also give cows to the Hutus who protected the Tutsis during the genocide as a way to show that we are thankful to them. We also do community work with different people. We also try to help the survivors who have trauma problems with counselling projects, especially during the commemoration period.
What kind of challenges do you face as part of your job?
We have a lot of financial problems because the donors and the grants are not always enough to cover our survivors’ needs. Members come sometimes here to find solutions for the problems they are facing, but we do not always have enough funds. Some survivors still do not have places to live in. Also, some university graduates are unemployed, and they do not have families to help them 'till they find jobs, or even any places to go to, especially in the villages, where they do not have any houses or anyone to help them. So they come here to seek help because they do not have any other choices. It is a very big issue we have today, because our members do not have relatives, they do not own property, and they find it very difficult to start their lives after they graduate. But I think it has been getting better, because most of the graduates now know that they will have a lot of responsibilities, so they start asking earlier and looking for ways to help them become independent.
Is AERG solely dependent on Rwandan funds?
We accept donations from different places. There is the Survivors Fund based in the United Kingdom which helps us and other survivor organizations, as well.
Before the interview, you mentioned an existing family structure among the survivors. Can you please tell me more about how it works, and if it helps with the challenges AERG faces?
The family is the basis for AERG, because as I told you before, these families were our way of sharing our stories. If you have trauma, you will not be able to study. First you have to talk about the social problems you are facing, your trauma, your genocide story, before being able to join in a classroom and do well or study at school. It was not easy for us to study at the beginning, when many people were still facing these problems.
When the young survivors started making families, they would gather with their synthetic family and discuss the problems they face. So they would have someone whom they trust, have confidence in, and whom they can share their stories with. When they shared, they became calmer and felt better. So within the family, if I tell you my problem, and you tell me yours, we will realize we have many things in common. Many people would cry when they talk about their problems, but that sharing made the family's connections stronger, so with time they became able to smile and laugh and share different and more things than their genocide stories.
When you deal with your psychological problems, you can start dealing with the financial ones. Some members help each other and contribute monthly to their families, so the members who are working and have salaries would help those still in school. In the beginning, the families would start by sharing everything that is considered a necessary material, even pens and notebooks. Also, within the families, if you are still in school and you are facing a problem, you can always talk to your mother and father within the family and tell them to help you. Also, you always go out together once a week to make sure everyone is fine; we would go together to the commemoration events as well. So even if the perpetrators see you, they would know you became tough and strong and independent.
I had a family when I was at university, and we are still in touch till today; we have a WhatsApp group. I have two families—one from university and one from high school. If someone has a wedding, we would all go together and help with all the ceremonies and functions of the wedding. It is a very helpful structure.
On your website it is mentioned that you have a hotline offering psychological and legal help. How are the two connected in AERG’s vision?
I think the two are connected because these are the two main problems facing all survivors. The helpline began in 2012 when we realized that many of our members do not have the financial needs to come here and discuss their problems. It costs them a lot of money to come all the way from the villages to Kigali. It also takes time to look into the problems and to see if we have to submit proposals for funds, for example, so even if they come, they would not find a place to stay in to follow up on their problems. So this is how the idea came up. Our members can call for free from anywhere around the country, so they can express their problems on the phone, and we would give them advices over the phone for free as well. If they need to come for a big challenge, it is easier to manage it as we can help with the cost of coming here.
Are the problems facing women different from those facing men?
Yes, of course. Women here face different problems, and for us here in AERG we take more care of women more than men when solving the problems, because even if as a man you do not have a place to stay at for a night, it would be much more difficult for women facing the same problem. It is not easy for the girls, also, when it comes to trauma problems. The trauma cases we have seen are worse for girls more than guys; they suffer from trauma more. Also, women do not own property. It is easier for men to own property because the relatives and the people would say that they are responsible for the family, but women are not. So it is not easy for them.
How does AERG include younger generations, including those who did not witness the genocide?
The survivors are the main active members of the association; they are the first category we have. But those who are willing to understand our problems, they can be members, and they are welcome to participate in our activities and to help us in fighting the genocide denial, so they are the second category. But those who do not have the same relationship with the genocide do not usually join—the children of perpetrators, for example. Many people do not accept that they come and join us because we accept those who do not have a relationship or a responsibility of the genocide. The third category of members are honorary, so they are people like heads of schools, professors at universities, people who took orphans as their children—so we think of them as honorary members.
Is there anything else you would like to add?
Yea, first of all I want to tell you that many foreign people do not know our stories, but you came to the field and saw the Rwandan history and the survivors’ stories. You saw how we are living together here for yourself, so I want to ask you to share the information you gathered, so for you to be our ambassador, to share our stories, and to try and teach others on how we are trying to develop our country’s future.
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